Scientific truth and religious truth

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
I listened to all 4 hours of the conversations. Unsurprisingly, I find myself agreeing with Sam Harris. Although, I do think Peterson's concerns about the consequence of loss of religion's are valid(even Sam agrees to that), however, I agree with Sam that the net negative of religions outweigh the positive. I also agree with Sam that structures obtained from religions aren't the only ones that can protect us from a nihilistic world view.
Unsurprisingly, I side with Jordan Peterson even though I'm aware of the paradoxes in his argumentation. I just can't think you can live an optimal life without religion, and I mean a proper religion that's been weeded out of its outdated beliefs, not a spiritual yoga retreat every other weekend, been there, done that (not specifically that but just being 'spiritual' and it just made my my mental well-being even worse.

Research actually supports my experience: '"Spiritual But Not Religious" Is Associated With Depression' https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... depression

This is exactly was Sam Harris is trying to do, but that doesn't work, which explains why even though I discovered Sam Harris and the other atheist thinkers before Jordan Peterson, all they managed to make me do is raise an eyebrow and mildly comfort me into my adolescent wrath against religion: "muh sky daddy cope lololol!" What a waste of a stellar IQ for those people. I wish Sam Harris wasn't such a fundamentalist (yes) when it comes to science and his materialistic worldview.

All I have is my personal experience before and after, I was religious before I was 15, went into existential suffering like you wouldn't believe to the point of having panic attacks and deep bouts of depression (and the hair loss certainly didn't help) and I tried various things like I stated above. The only thing that truly put me back together in the head so to speak was religion. All I can say is that I'm much better now and the fact and for once it's long-lasting. It's not like I hit rock bottom and then I've seen the light, no, as I improved everything in my life, it's like everything came together, even before I ever heard Jordan Peterson speak.

He and Jonathan Pageau just put into words and confirmed what I already knew. Again, having been on the other side, I knew exactly how my old self would think of all I'm saying above, and I seem to be the only religious person in this thread and this website, except for @Marki I think? Ah well, if you want, bring it guys :p.
blackg wrote:
1 year ago
I couldn't spend four hours listening to these two gas baggers droning on (and trying to prove how smart they are), but in the end... stating the bloody obvious!

Why do we put these bloviators on a pedestal?
The same kind of criticism I've seen of Wolf Pack on HairlossTalk or people who enjoy bashing proper intellectuals, it's all resentment, arrogance and jealousy. No you're no better than widely respected and acclaimed intellectuals and the fact that their work has been cited thousands of times is no accident or a result of people giving them unearned praise because they're stupid.

I won't say more because I know you're mostly a contrarian, and maybe we need someone like you on this website.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Marki » 1 year ago

Admin wrote:
1 year ago
Unsurprisingly, I side with Jordan Peterson even though I'm aware of the paradoxes in his argumentation. I just can't think you can live an optimal life without religion, and I mean a proper religion that's been weeded out of its outdated beliefs, not a spiritual yoga retreat every other weekend, been there, done that (not specifically that but just being 'spiritual' and it just made my my mental well-being even worse.

Research actually supports my experience: '"Spiritual But Not Religious" Is Associated With Depression' https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... depression

This is exactly was Sam Harris is trying to do, but that doesn't work, which explains why even though I discovered Sam Harris and the other atheist thinkers before Jordan Peterson, all they managed to make me do is raise an eyebrow and mildly comfort me into my adolescent wrath against religion: "muh sky daddy cope lololol!" What a waste of a stellar IQ for those people. I wish Sam Harris wasn't such a fundamentalist (yes) when it comes to science and his materialistic worldview.

All I have is my personal experience before and after, I was religious before I was 15, went into existential suffering like you wouldn't believe to the point of having panic attacks and deep bouts of depression (and the hair loss certainly didn't help) and I tried various things like I stated above. The only thing that truly put me back together in the head so to speak was religion. All I can say is that I'm much better now and the fact and for once it's long-lasting. It's not like I hit rock bottom and then I've seen the light, no, as I improved everything in my life, it's like everything came together, even before I ever heard Jordan Peterson speak.

He and Jonathan Pageau just put into words and confirmed what I already knew. Again, having been on the other side, I knew exactly how my old self would think of all I'm saying above, and I seem to be the only religious person in this thread and this website, except for @Marki I think? Ah well, if you want, bring it guys :p.



The same kind of criticism I've seen of Wolf Pack on HairlossTalk or people who enjoy bashing proper intellectuals, it's all resentment, arrogance and jealousy. No you're no better than widely respected and acclaimed intellectuals and the fact that their work has been cited thousands of times is no accident or a result of people giving them unearned praise because they're stupid.

I won't say more because I know you're mostly a contrarian, and maybe we need someone like you on this website.
Yep practicing Catholic since I could walk - still church every Sunday and I'm now 42. I don't fully understand it and likely won't in one lifetime but I credit it for keeping me sane through some tough times and steering me in the right paths in contrast to the "intellects" who told me to go the other way - luckily, or perhaps by divine grace I didn't.

My other 3 siblings were raised the same way, but went astray, and without getting into too much detail, I catapulted leagues ahead of them in life today even though I started from behind.

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago
Yep practicing Catholic since I could walk - still church every Sunday and I'm now 42. I don't fully understand it and likely won't in one lifetime but I credit it for keeping me sane through some tough times and steering me in the right paths in contrast to the "intellects" who told me to go the other way - luckily, or perhaps by divine grace I didn't.

My other 3 siblings were raised the same way, but went astray, and without getting into too much detail, I catapulted leagues ahead of them in life today even though I started from behind.
Well said, Marky.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago

My other 3 siblings were raised the same way, but went astray, and without getting into too much detail, I catapulted leagues ahead of them in life today even though I started from behind.
There are many atheists that are quite successful. There are religious people that are struggling. Honestly, how far you get in life depends on various factors. Religion may be personally an important factor to you but it doesn't mean everyone needs it in order to live a good life.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Admin wrote:
1 year ago
I wish Sam Harris wasn't such a fundamentalist (yes) when it comes to science and his materialistic worldview.
Really Fred? Peterson couldn't respond to all of Harris's objections. Why do you expect people to agree to him if he doesn't have an adequate response to their questions? You are calling Harris a fundamentalist. Have you considered the possibility that you yourself have become overzealous on this issue? Does Peterson think Harris is a fundamentalist? It's not too hard to see why people can rationally hold position similar to Harris(or Jordan for that matter).
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Marki » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
There are many atheists that are quite successful. There are religious people that are struggling. Honestly, how far you get in life depends on various factors. Religion may be personally an important factor to you but it doesn't mean everyone needs it in order to live a good life.
Of course, everyone will tell you something different based on their experience - that is mine.

A former boss of mine was atheist and I respected his views, and he was successful generally speaking in life. But when I asked him whats his greatest ambition in life he said watching his daughter grow - I said fine, very noble, then told him but there is something better for both you out there.

And that's the crux of the matter, the after life, Jesus Christ rose from the dead (the supernatural) promising the after life in heaven - generally speaking. No other spiritual guru or religious leader did or made the claim. That's what makes Christian different with substance, generally speaking.

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago
And that's the crux of the matter, the after life, Jesus Christ rose from the dead (the supernatural) promising the after life in heaven - generally speaking. No other spiritual guru or religious leader did or made the claim. That's what makes Christian different with substance, generally speaking.
That's not true. Other spiritual gurus and religious leaders have promised after life in heaven.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Rudiger » 1 year ago

Is it not incredibly rare to have a religious ideology which isn't roundly based on the after life? Even Orthodox Judaism doesn't have concrete teaching on the subject but it's teachers and followers still all have a vague belief (even if there's not much emphasis like I'm every other religion)
me me me me I'm the omniscient and compassionate Rudiger

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Marki » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
That's not true. Other spiritual gurus and religious leaders have promised after life in heaven.
But did they rise from the dead to prove it? Without the resurrection Christianity would be just another religion. Could the Bible's claims about the resurrection be a hoax? I suppose - but then what inspired the early Christians to fight for their messiah's teachings to the point of their own death - they all died as Martyrs eventually. They must've seen something that really inspired them, and here we are 2000 years later it's still going - generally speaking.

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago
But did they rise from the dead to prove it?
Other religious leaders performed other miracles. When Yashoda, Krishna's mom, looked inside his mouth she saw the entire universe in it. That was only one of countless miracles he performed in his life including resurrecting the dead. Even in modern time, you can find followers claiming their "religious leader" has cured their blindness or cancer. These reports mean nothing if they can't be verified or reproduced.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago
They must've seen something that really inspired them, and here we are 2000 years later it's still going - generally speaking.
Are you aware that some "religious leaders" even in the modern time slept with their followers wives with the consent of husbands? So should I conclude that those leaders must be divine because followers "must have seen something"?? Gullible people are coaxed into doing bizarre things for various reasons. You can't use this kind of argument as evidence for someones divinity.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Marki » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
Are you aware that some "religious leaders" even in the modern time slept with their followers wives with the consent of husbands? So should I conclude that those leaders must be divine because followers "must have seen something"?? Gullible people are coaxed into doing bizarre things for various reasons. You can't use this kind of argument as evidence for someones divinity.
There will always be hookey "religious leaders" and naive followers, remember the mass suicide for the heavens gate comet? But how long to do these last before fading away.

St Peter upon his death asked to be crucified upside down as he didn't feel worthy to die like Christ. Husbands allowing leaders to sleep with their wife is a weird sexually perverted fetish.

Ya I know these discussion can go on forever, even thousands of years.

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Marki » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
Other religious leaders performed other miracles. When Yashoda, Krishna's mom, looked inside his mouth she saw the entire universe in it. That was only one of countless miracles he performed in his life including resurrecting the dead. Even in modern time, you can find followers claiming their "religious leader" has cured their blindness or cancer. These reports mean nothing if they can't be verified or reproduced.
I don't know about these, and don't have time to investigate - but if I did I'd find sources to the contrary. Like Krishna's mom was on mushrooms.

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know about these, and don't have time to investigate - but if I did I'd find sources to the contrary. Like Krishna's mom was on mushrooms.
The only problem with your explanation is that Krishna repeated these kinds of miracles throughout his life. He even resurrected the dead. What you are doing is engaging in a behavior that I see all too often among religious people, which is, "my religion is right and everyone else is wrong". You are using logic to raise questions on Krishna's divinity but when it comes to Jesus, you abandon all logic and are ready to take a "leap of faith". The real issue here is that you are biased towards your religion hence you have no problem accepting it. But your attachment to your faith is not an evidence for objective superiority of it over others.

I have no problem with Christianity actually and I like Jesus as a person. However, I don't think it's any better than religions such as Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, etc. Christianity is definitely better than Islam though and I will love it if all Muslims convert to Christianity(or any religion for that matter).
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Marki wrote:
1 year ago
There will always be hookey "religious leaders" and naive followers, remember the mass suicide for the heavens gate comet? But how long to do these last before fading away.
Islam is still going on. So yeah, just because a religion is going on for a long time, it doesn't mean it's claims are 100% valid.
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