Making sense of the current political climate

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blackg
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Trump supporters have nuance. They generally don’t mind Indians and East Asians, it’s Muslims, Blacks, Central and South Americans and Puerto Rican’s that Trump supporters generally hate. Even right wing hate groups have nuance. They don’t hate all non whites. Hitler teamed up with the Japanese despite being a white supremacist. There is a gross simplification going on here, though pj raised a really good point above that I would like to address. I’ll hold off until later because it deserves an in depth response and little bit of research/fact checking.
I don't know about Trump supporter's universally hating all those ethnic groups you mentioned. There is even nuance to how they feel about these groups.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know about Trump supporter's universally hating all those ethnic groups you mentioned. There is even nuance to how they feel about these groups.
Yes there is. There’s nuance in liberalism, conservatism, there’s nuance in right wing hate groups, there’s nuance in left wing SJW anti free speech groups. There are Christians who want to kill gays, there are Jews who refuse to sit next to women on buses or planes, and there are Muslims, even Shia Muslims who listen to heavy metal and are agnostic regarding homosexuality. My Muslim friends are Malay and Indonesian women, Sunni, and lovely people...

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Yes there is. There’s nuance in liberalism, conservatism, there’s nuance in right wing hate groups, there’s nuance in left wing SJW anti free speech groups. There are Christians who want to kill gays, there are Jews who refuse to sit next to women on buses or planes, and there are Muslims, even Shia Muslims who listen to heavy metal and are agnostic regarding homosexuality. My Muslim friends are Malay and Indonesian women, Sunni, and lovely people...
If we're going to engage in confirmation bias:

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/thre ... 074662be41

Lovely.

My Muslim friend told me he would kill his wife if he found out that she was cheating on him.

I'm happy he feels confortable enough with me not to practice taqiyya on me :).

Lovely... Ask them what they think about what happened at Charlie Hebdo.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
America welcomes you.
Thank you mate!
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
I still totally disagree that there is no institutional racism. The incarceration rate and community policing issues, even testimonies of former police officers refuted this claim. It is largely dependent on country, but athe rise of the right wing and fascism is a great source of concern to me, far more than irritating SJWs and their 50 different gender pronouns.
First of all you should stop associating facism with right wing. Fasicm was actually radical socialism.

You are moving the goal post now. I never claimed that there is no institutional racism. Liberal institutions like Harvard not granting admission to Asians simply because of their race is prime example of institutional racism. My argument was that Muslim travel ban doesn't prove that there is institutional racims in America. In fact your following statement sparked the whole discussion.

"But his arguments that there is no institutional racism are way off. It does depend largely on the country, I can’t speak for Belgium, and yes, people from radical Sunni, Wahhabist places are coming to Europe. In my hometown, the Syrian refugees are unfortunately the Sunni Wahhabist rather than the more moderate, secular Alawites. That said, that there isn’t institutionalized racism, when America has enacted two Muslim travel bans.


I will like to discuss the institutional racism, if any, in the US. I will like to clarify a few things at the outset though. When you say "institutional racism exists in America" what do you exactly mean? Do you mean that racism exists in all American institutions? Or perhaps you mean that racism exists in some institutions, such as the criminal justice system, but not in the others? What is your evidence that racism exists? Have you considered other explanations besides racism that may explain the trends that worry you? Do you think that that racism exists in institutions in all the states or it's more prevalent in some states than others?

When you simply say something like "racism exists in American institutions" it doesn't really tell me anything. Once you clarify your position, we can have more substantive discussion.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

The latter. In some institutions, and in some states. Again, nuance is the keyword. I don’t think black people in Minnesota are treated as badly as in some southern state. Institutional racism is clearly present in drug laws, policing, and to some extent in funding for second level schools. The denial of Asian students in favor of less qualified or lower performing black or Hispanic students is bad, I agree. Like I said, we should be lifting up poor kids, not lowering standards and requirements and creating quotas. Sam Seder had an interesting discussion on the subject, I’ll try to find it. The war on drugs was specifically the most destructive thing for black communities since desegregation and civil rights. It broke up families, resulted in increased poverty, despite equal rates of drug use in blacks and whites, the arrest and incarceration rates among black people, almost 3 times higher. Black people are usually less capable of paying bail too. Similarly, Latin American drug wars (sorry, moving the goalposts, but I think it’s related) have been massively destructive of Central American states and are partially to largely responsible for the large immigration to America that we’re seeing lately on the news.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

@MadScientist I will also like to address the following shockingly erroneous statement that you made.

" I think this is a right wing, fundamentalist issue, and that Evangelical Christians, Zionist Jews, and Wahhabi Muslims are all equally dangerous and destructive."

Do you seriously believe that Evangelical Chrisitans are as dangerous and destructive as Wahhabi Muslims???? I live in a den of evangeical christians in the US. Back when I was in college, I used to have extensive debates on Christianity with them and openly made fun of their religion whenever they tried to convert me . I once compared Old Testament god to Hitler in front of 20 evnagelicals and they all were still very polite and respectful towards me. They still kept inviting me to their homes on Christmas and Thanksgiving as I was away from my family. I can't even dream about doing that in a Muslim majority area, let alone Wahhabis. Tell me one thing, how many people have evangelicals killed lately? How many buildings have they bombed? Tell me the names of global terrorist evangelical organizations similar to ISIS or Al Qaida that are carrying out terrorists acts, throwing gays off the roof tops, raping women, beheading non believers, buying and selling sex slaves, etc .Some of you guys need to go live in a Muslim majority country for a while to get a more informed position on things.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

Evangelicals support every war the US has taken part it, they vote for the most militaristic, hawkish politicians, all the conservative warhawks In Washington either are, or pretend to be Evangelicals. If you include US foreign policy (and I definitely do), Christian evangelicals are more dangerous and destructive than all Islamic fundamentalists combined Irsq is gone, Libya is gone, millions dead, destruction, chaos, war, Syria is torn in two, Afghanistan is worse than ever, there’s a secret war in Somalia. Christian evangelicals support all these wars and Christian evangelical politicians are behind most of these, Christisns behind al. Then there’s the war in science and climate change that Christian evangelicals are engage in. Literally the most dangerous and destructive policy in the world. You guys probably think I have a big blind spot, but I can definitely say the same for you, and in all likelihood, we’re both right.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
My Muslim friends are Malay and Indonesian women, Sunni, and lovely people...
How would they feel about you if you were gay?
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
How would they feel about you if you were gay?
They would feel sad, because according to their beliefs, I would be a sinner, and God would judge me. Many Christians and Jews would have the same view.

They would not however, believe that I should be punished in “this world”. They are not so eager to mete out justice themselves and believe that it is up to God to judge...

As an atheist I find this unfortunate, but by average Christian or Jewish standards, not egregious. Fred’s friend sounds like a real scumbag though. I couldn’t be friends with someone who held those views.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
They would feel sad, because according to their beliefs, I would be a sinner, and God would judge me. Many Christians and Jews would have the same view.

They would not however, believe that I should be punished in “this world”. They are not so eager to mete out justice themselves and believe that it is up to God to judge...

As an atheist I find this unfortunate, but by average Christian or Jewish standards, not egregious. Fred’s friend sounds like a real scumbag though. I couldn’t be friends with someone who held those views.
Fair comments.

On another subject....
You do realise that the "evangelical" West didn't actually set out to destroy Afghanistan, Syria and Libya don't you?

Would you be comfortable with these countries still being ruled by the regimes of--respectively-- the Taliban (90 percent of the country), Assad and Gaddafi?
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
Fair comments.

On another subject....
You do realise that the "evangelical" West didn't actually set out to destroy Afghanistan, Syria and Libya don't you?

Would you be comfortable with these countries still being ruled by the regimes of--respectively-- the Taliban (90 percent of the country), Assad and Gaddafi?
Yes I would, absolutely. Firstly, Gaddafi was in full compliance with America's demands when he was overthrown by Obama and Clinton, and murdered on the street (I don't consider Obama or Clinton to be in any way left wingers). Gadaffi was a secular, nationalist dictator. He was authoritarian, but his country was the richest in North Africa. Some speculate that the reason for the US destruction of Libya is the intention of Gadaffi to discard the US dollar and Euro as a reserve currency and switch to a Libyan, Gold backed pan African dinar, but that's a discussion for another day. Similarly, Assad is a secular alawite dictator, the strongest on womens rights in the Islamic world, bar none. You can read about Syrian laws regarding women's education... You can look at photos of his wife... Anyway, the US has been backing Jihadist, Saudi backed rebels, the Free Syrian army, aka Al Nusra, aka Al Qaeda against Assad. Both America and Israel have been providing air support and crippling sanctions.

The Taliban are dreadful, and now, since the US invasion of Afghanistan, they have greater control than ever before... Iraq, I don't even need to mention. Regardless, most of what you all perceive as being the evil nature of Islam, is just blowback, for western support of the worst elements of the Islamic world, against secular nationalism in the Islamic world.

As for intentions, these may not have been the West's intentions, but they were foreseeable consequences. There's a video of Dick Cheney in the 90s predicting the negative outcome of Iraq, arguing against it, then in 2003, he was all for it. The Sam Harris argument, intentions falls apart here, and the Chomsky argument, consequences, becomes far more relevant.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Yes I would, absolutely. Firstly, Gaddafi was in full compliance with America's demands when he was overthrown by Obama and Clinton, and murdered on the street (I don't consider Obama or Clinton to be in any way left wingers). Gadaffi was a secular, nationalist dictator. He was authoritarian, but his country was the richest in North Africa. Some speculate that the reason for the US destruction of Libya is the intention of Gadaffi to discard the US dollar and Euro as a reserve currency and switch to a Libyan, Gold backed pan African dinar, but that's a discussion for another day. Similarly, Assad is a secular alawite dictator, the strongest on womens rights in the Islamic world, bar none. You can read about Syrian laws regarding women's education... You can look at photos of his wife... Anyway, the US has been backing Jihadist, Saudi backed rebels, the Free Syrian army, aka Al Nusra, aka Al Qaeda against Assad. Both America and Israel have been providing air support and crippling sanctions.

The Taliban are dreadful, and now, since the US invasion of Afghanistan, they have greater control than ever before... Iraq, I don't even need to mention. Regardless, most of what you all perceive as being the evil nature of Islam, is just blowback, for western support of the worst elements of the Islamic world, against secular nationalism in the Islamic world.

As for intentions, these may not have been the West's intentions, but they were foreseeable consequences. There's a video of Dick Cheney in the 90s predicting the negative outcome of Iraq, arguing against it, then in 2003, he was all for it. The Sam Harris argument, intentions falls apart here, and the Chomsky argument, consequences, becomes far more relevant.
The term "blowback" is shorthand for leftist denial of genuine problems in the Islamic world that can only be confronted locally.

You seem very convinced by the Alawite rulers of Syria.
Sunnis make up around 75% of the Syrian population and I believe they should have greater representation.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
The term "blowback" is shorthand for leftist denial of genuine problems in the Islamic world that can only be confronted locally.

You seem very convinced by the Alawite rulers of Syria.
Sunnis make up around 75% of the Syrian population and I believe they should have greater representation.
Blowback means actions have consequences. It is not a left wing concept, simply a logical one. Ignoring the consequences of your actions is not good foreign policy... In my opinion. Ignoring the consequences of your foreign policy is extremely dangerous and stupid. Syria held democratic elections, all government controlled areas of Syria and Syrian refugees who voted at world embassies, voted for Assad. I don’t think he’s a saint, but it’s certainly preferable to have him remain in charge than whatever America, Saudi Arabia and Israel have in mind.

Colonel Larry Wilkerson goes into great detail regarding US foreign policy and the consequences. I urge everyone to listen to/read or watch his videos.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Blowback means actions have consequences. It is not a left wing concept, simply a logical one. Ignoring the consequences of your actions is not good foreign policy... In my opinion. Ignoring the consequences of your foreign policy is extremely dangerous and stupid. Syria held democratic elections, all government controlled areas of Syria and Syrian refugees who voted at world embassies, voted for Assad. I don’t think he’s a saint, but it’s certainly preferable to have him remain in charge than whatever America, Saudi Arabia and Israel have in mind.

Colonel Larry Wilkerson goes into great detail regarding US foreign policy and the consequences. I urge everyone to listen to/read or watch his videos.
Part of the truth is that a lot of Muslims in these regions are pretty resentful towards each other and the rest of the world. They operate mostly collectively which means that they easily let themselves be controlled by the minority of violent authoritarian Muslims.

And it's the main reason their countries are shitholes. Why didn't it happen to other countries the US colonized or interfered with, like Japan for example? As always, there's no point denying the obvious. Sure the US' interference played a role, but a very minor one.

Why can't those Muslim countries organize and work towards the good? As I've said, most Muslims do not want that, most Muslims want to see the world burn because they're spiteful that they're not like the US, like Australia, like Europe, like the Jews (it's da zioonists!).

Crying fragile narcissistic littles biches. Let's say it as it is. For them, it's always someone else's fault if Muslims are not doing well around the world. They point fingers at everyone except their violent totalitarian ideology. It's the US, it's Israel, it's the CIA (fucking lol!), it's the racists, it's the islamophobes.

Anyway, the problem is going to sort itself out in Europe, people are starting to say 'no more!' and quite firmly. Once we cancel their European nationality, all the troublemakers in their community can go back to their shithole country of origin and proceed to make it even more of a shithole for the next centuries. When they get through their own enlightenment period, maybe we'll allow them back.
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