Grown men and geek stuff

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Exodus » 2 weeks ago

JLBB wrote:
2 weeks ago
Says the guy who listens to Bon Jovi and AC/DC.
ac/dc has rap like lyrics but is far superior instrument wise

dont see how you can compare jovi to rap. its my life = wanting to become independent and live your own life. living on a prayer = motivational. bed of roses, you give love a bad name = romance. actually meaningful topics.

meanwhile in rap = look at me im rich and have sex. not meaningful. sure good if you're in that kind of mood but nothing really memorable. this migos will probably be forgotten in 20 years

Blackg hit the nail on the head. theres almost nothing meaningful or important described in rap besides the political stuff.

its like you're being purposefully ignorant to be honest

Added in 1 minute 32 seconds:
blackg wrote:
2 weeks ago
I can't connect with rap. I mean, a track or two here and there, or even in mash-up form is okay but rap doesn't speak to who I am as a person.
It doesn't reflect my hopes, fears, and most definitely, life experience.

I look for deeper reflection in most of what I listen to.
yea exactly. most non shallow people cant really connect to most of rap. nothing to connect to really

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 2 weeks ago

We all listen to Bon Jovi, he's on all the time in shopping malls, in gyms, in restaurants, etc, I must have listened to him hundreds of times :-)
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by That Guy » 2 weeks ago

blackg wrote:
2 weeks ago
You're confusing me with @That Guy.
Hair metal is degenerate.

and extremely Jewish.

But they did have some great tunes.

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by JLBB » 2 weeks ago

Exodus wrote:
2 weeks ago
ac/dc has rap like lyrics but is far superior instrument wise

dont see how you can compare jovi to rap. its my life = wanting to become independent and live your own life. living on a prayer = motivational. bed of roses, you give love a bad name = romance. actually meaningful topics.

meanwhile in rap = look at me im rich and have sex. not meaningful. sure good if you're in that kind of mood but nothing really memorable. this migos will probably be forgotten in 20 years

Blackg hit the nail on the head. theres almost nothing meaningful or important described in rap besides the political stuff.

its like you're being purposefully ignorant to be honest

Added in 1 minute 32 seconds:

yea exactly. most non shallow people cant really connect to most of rap. nothing to connect to really
You can't tell the difference between content/subject matter and quality, that's the problem. If you think Jovi is meaningful or music with depth in any sense, you have serious issues.

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by That Guy » 2 weeks ago

JLBB wrote:
2 weeks ago
You can't tell the difference between content/subject matter and quality, that's the problem. If you think Jovi is meaningful or music with depth in any sense, you have serious issues.
Most rap music doesn't even have a discernible melody; it's just a beat with a guy...rapping over it. The accompaniment parts to a lot of 80s rock were at a level not seen since in the mainstream rock and metal scene. They were more complex, solid voice-leading, and melodically-interesting guitar and keyboard backings than just simply strumming power chords. But not too complex that they lose sensibility like in Dream Theater and other "progressive" wankery.

George Lynch, John Sykes, Steve Vai, Nuno Bettencourt, Bill Leverty...these guys were and still are some next-level shit on the guitar, especially rhythm. Nuno is fuckin' unreal.







There's no objective metric by which to judge "depth" in music other than "complexity + cohesion". The only other way would be in the literal sense of distance; a lot of amateur recordings suffer from a stereo field that is "flat" and all the instruments sound as if they're the same proximity from the listener.

"Depth" therefore isn't necessarily a measure of quality, because a song with "depth" isn't necessarily "good".

I find all this discussion about musical depth and artistry irrelevant anyway. If you're discussing "lyrics" it's actually irrelevant what the lyrics are. If you want deep and meaningful words, you don't need to put them into a song either. It can just be a poem.

When I studied music in college I was always in that outlier camp in that I'll argue music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit. "Art" music has never had mainstream appeal and kinda was just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies.

Today, rich people have other ways to spend their money and flex on us than going to Mahler concerts. In fact, video game and film music is largely credited with saving the symphony orchestra, because it's the only thing orchestras are playing that a lot people still want to hear from them.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-videog ... 1444696737

I mean, I was one of the better counterpoint students and Bach's fugues bore the shit out of me and most teachers and students will tell you that's as deep as it gets.

Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and the other greats? Their most-enduring pieces are their simplest ones; chords + melody — which is exactly what the normies were composing then and now.

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Admin » 2 weeks ago

That Guy wrote:
2 weeks ago
When I studied music in college I was always in that outlier camp in that I'll argue music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit. "Art" music has never had mainstream appeal and kinda was just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies.
Those are the modern and postmodern definitions of culture. In the past, culture, music, art used to be activities you partcipated in.

This idea that art and culture are there to entertain you as you sit on your coach with you with a bag of Cheetos is a product of modern Western society, and it's quite alienating.

The truth is, nothing is entertainment, cultural artefacts like music, movies and video games are there to make us notice the deeper patterns of reality and ultimately turn us into better people. That's why we care about it so much, about quality, how it makes us feel, we intuitively know what's good.

It is more subjective than objective, hence all the (online) arguments about art. A movie gets 8.9 on IMDB with 500000 votes? Well maybe those people were all wrong? Then comes the need to turn art into something objective and rational. While art is far from being primarily about those.

We really need to do away with this reductionist and materialist idea of entertainment, that some things are "just" something. "It's just a movie, just a video game, just music, it doesn't do anything real brah!" Wrong, seriously wrong.
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by JLBB » 2 weeks ago

That Guy wrote:
2 weeks ago
Most rap music doesn't even have a discernible melody; it's just a beat with a guy...rapping over it. The accompaniment parts to a lot of 80s rock were at a level not seen since in the mainstream rock and metal scene. They were more complex, solid voice-leading, and melodically-interesting guitar and keyboard backings than just simply strumming power chords. But not too complex that they lose sensibility like in Dream Theater and other "progressive" wankery.

George Lynch, John Sykes, Steve Vai, Nuno Bettencourt, Bill Leverty...these guys were and still are some next-level shit on the guitar, especially rhythm. Nuno is fuckin' unreal.







There's no objective metric by which to judge "depth" in music other than "complexity + cohesion". The only other way would be in the literal sense of distance; a lot of amateur recordings suffer from a stereo field that is "flat" and all the instruments sound as if they're the same proximity from the listener.

"Depth" therefore isn't necessarily a measure of quality, because a song with "depth" isn't necessarily "good".

I find all this discussion about musical depth and artistry irrelevant anyway. If you're discussing "lyrics" it's actually irrelevant what the lyrics are. If you want deep and meaningful words, you don't need to put them into a song either. It can just be a poem.

When I studied music in college I was always in that outlier camp in that I'll argue music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit. "Art" music has never had mainstream appeal and kinda was just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies.

Today, rich people have other ways to spend their money and flex on us than going to Mahler concerts. In fact, video game and film music is largely credited with saving the symphony orchestra, because it's the only thing orchestras are playing that a lot people still want to hear from them.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-videog ... 1444696737

I mean, I was one of the better counterpoint students and Bach's fugues bore the shit out of me and most teachers and students will tell you that's as deep as it gets.

Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and the other greats? Their most-enduring pieces are their simplest ones; chords + melody — which is exactly what the normies were composing then and now.
"I find all this discussion about musical depth and artistry irrelevant anyway. If you're discussing "lyrics" it's actually irrelevant what the lyrics are. If you want deep and meaningful words, you don't need to put them into a song either. It can just be a poem."

I think the sentiment about lyrics here is vaguely accurate. Exodus looking for meaningful words in a musical medium again just shows a lack of interest in the medium itself, and on top of that his idea of meaning is just words that reflect his worldview, even if they're as shallow as in a Bon Jovi song. Meaning isn't simply repeating things that are largely obvious and appeal to a generic crowd or specific demographic, otherwise musicians would resort to just putting Jordan Peterson speeches to music.

"Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and the other greats? Their most-enduring pieces are their simplest ones; chords + melody — which is exactly what the normies were composing then and now."

Virtually everything in Western music is chords + melody, this is incredibly reductionist and comparing Mozart to Tchaikovsky or late Beethoven is insane, they are a world apart. It also doesn't show an even remotely precise understanding to compare this to today's normie music either, even Mozart who largely wrote the simplest works here is infinitely more complex in terms of his arrangements and melody, even if harmonically they are often quite simple.

"I mean, I was one of the better counterpoint students and Bach's fugues bore the shit out of me and most teachers and students will tell you that's as deep as it gets."

Honestly this is true I find. His music and a lot of baroque in general is very procedural and lacking in expression compared to the subsequent classical era such as Mozart even.

"Today, rich people have other ways to spend their money and flex on us than going to Mahler concerts."

Liking art that is less mainstream, more specific and less aimed at a certain demographic has nothing to do with flexing, I've brought it up a hundred times but tastes and appreciation of art are formed largely by education. For the wealthy or middle class they have the ability to educate their children in the arts of various forms and their history, that inevitably leads to more exploratory tastes and interests beyond the norm. If you're not educated in any sense about art, your tastes are inevitably going to be far less broad and your ability to analyse and appreciate is going to be far less. To believe that people who like anything beyond hair metal and superhero movies are just flexing (when the people with better tastes are virtually always better educated in the subject) is utterly delusional to the point that its sad and I feel bad for the closed-minded pea brains who say it.

"When I studied music in college I was always in that outlier camp in that I'll argue music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit. "Art" music has never had mainstream appeal and kinda was just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies.
"

I got into this before, but again this emphasises the point I make that people studying the a specific artform tend to have greater respect and appreciation for it, and thereby borader tastes. Your life education have taught you that gas chambers weren't a thing and that rich jews, rather than simply rich people are to blame for the majority of Western Civilizations problems soI'm not sure you process information that doesn't appeal to your worldview.

"Most rap music doesn't even have a discernible melody; it's just a beat with a guy...rapping over it. The accompaniment parts to a lot of 80s rock were at a level not seen since in the mainstream rock and metal scene."

Firstly the first sentence is obviously unbelievably reductionist, if hip hop was that simple every hip hop song would hit the top of the charts, every song would be equally popular and criticially well received because according to you, they're all the same. Of course you could be a millionaire rapper too because its just a "beat with a guy rapping over it", do you genuinely believe you could even make a worthwhile beat that could end up on the charts or would engage the average music listener? The reality is you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and have no experience or education in hip hop because you think of it as nigger music and the lack of melody doesn't appeal to your Western Civilisation shtick.

"The accompaniment parts to a lot of 80s rock were at a level not seen since in the mainstream rock and metal scene. They were more complex, solid voice-leading, and melodically-interesting guitar and keyboard backings than just simply strumming power chords. But not too complex that they lose sensibility like in Dream Theater and other "progressive" wankery. "

"these guys were and still are some next-level shit on the guitar, "

""Depth" therefore isn't necessarily a measure of quality, because a song with "depth" isn't necessarily "good"."

""Most rap music doesn't even have a discernible melody; it's just a beat with a guy...rapping over it. "

"I find all this discussion about musical depth and artistry irrelevant anyway."

"I'll argue music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit"

""Art" music has never had mainstream appeal and kinda was just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies."

And finally lets bring up the red flags here, as I mentioned to Afro that while its hard to be objective in judgement of art, you can be objective when it comes to whether or not arguments made about them are rational or logical.

On the one hand, you call the idea of musical depth and artistry irrelevant, yet on the other hand you shit on hip hop and reduce it to "just a beat with a guy rapping over it". You say depth isn't a measure of quality and that it doesn't determine whether its good or bad (and make a bizarre mention of depth in the sense of audio mixing to randomly flex basic musical knowledge) and on top of that say that art has never had mainstream appeal, and effectively suggest it has no value, calling it "kinda .. just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies". Yet at the beginning, you went on about laughably terrible hair metal saying it was "melodically interesting", "solid voice-leading", and that it was "at a level not seen since in mainstream rock and metal scene". You also make a judgement that it isn't "too complex" in regards to Dream Theater, once again using arbitrary standards of your own making that are based on nothing but your specific personal taste. Lmfao at complaining of progressive wankery, but praising Steve Vai in the next sentence.

Well which is it? Either art has no worth, there is no such thing as depth and nothing is on a higher level than anything else, art being "kinda ... just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies" and depth doesn't equate to good in which case hair metal is no more worthwhile than hip hop, or alternatively your arguments make no sense, lack any consistency and they're purely based on your (bad) taste. Funny enough, you even say "music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit", implying that quality is based not on artistry but cultural and mainstream appeal, well wake up because in 2019 hip hop reigns supreme and hair metal is laughed at.

I can deal with your white nationalism, can't deal with your bad taste and love of hair metal.

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by That Guy » 2 weeks ago

Admin wrote:
2 weeks ago
Those are the modern and postmodern definitions of culture. In the past, culture, music, art used to be activities you partcipated in.

This idea that art and culture are there to entertain you as you sit on your coach with you with a bag of Cheetos is a product of modern Western society, and it's quite alienating.
No, most of the rabble used music for story-telling and dancing.

It was never about "art" akin to a painting or sculpture. That was a considerably later idea and one which hasn't really sustained itself.

People want to hear music that is pleasing and fun to listen to. Most "art music" does not really fit that description for most.

The common people were able to recognize, uphold the beauty of and in many cases, built cathedrals, paintings, sculpture, etc. but when it came to music, suddenly they were all wrong? It was a bunch of rich people who suddenly had the right idea?

Yeah...no. I'll take Tchaikovsky and his waltzes or classic folk music over Bach's fugues, or AC/DC over 90% of Dream Theater's discography anyday.

Added in 3 minutes 43 seconds:
JLBB wrote:
2 weeks ago
Lmfao at complaining of progressive wankery, but praising Steve Vai in the next sentence.

Well which is it? Either art has no worth, there is no such thing as depth and nothing is on a higher level than anything else, art being "kinda ... just a thing rich people attended to flex on the normies" and depth doesn't equate to good in which case hair metal is no more worthwhile than hip hop, or alternatively your arguments make no sense, lack any consistency and they're purely based on your (bad) taste. Funny enough, you even say "music is primarily a cultural activity and form of entertainment and not "art" in the sense of paintings and shit", implying that quality is based not on artistry but cultural and mainstream appeal, well wake up because in 2019 hip hop reigns supreme and hair metal is laughed at
Steve Vai's work with bands like Whitesnake is not at all like his solo works.

Secondly, the rest of your post is operating under an assumption contrary to my point: Your arguments about "art not having worth" is lost because my position is that music is not art in the same way that...well, art is art.

This does not mean that there is no craft involved.

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 2 weeks ago

Relevant,

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/opin ... arvel.html
So, you might ask, what’s my problem? Why not just let superhero films and other franchise films be? The reason is simple. In many places around this country and around the world, franchise films are now your primary choice if you want to see something on the big screen. It’s a perilous time in film exhibition, and there are fewer independent theaters than ever. The equation has flipped and streaming has become the primary delivery system. Still, I don’t know a single filmmaker who doesn’t want to design films for the big screen, to be projected before audiences in theaters.
I'm fortunate to have three movie theaters near me that play non-blockbusters.
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Exodus » 2 weeks ago

JLBB wrote:
2 weeks ago
You can't tell the difference between content/subject matter and quality, that's the problem. If you think Jovi is meaningful or music with depth in any sense, you have serious issues.
are you trolling? lol. trying to see how far you can go defending bad music? this comes off as sophist devil advocate arguments. by meaning i obviously mean they sing about substantial topics

romance, life, responsibility, etc all stuff we can relate to and affects us long term. not just short term forgettable pleasure like bragging about being high and having sex. its not that complicated lol. and thats not my worldview, everyone cares about the former more than the latter. unless theyre like a psychopath

jovis not even my favorite, but i like a lot of their hits.
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 week ago

Exodus wrote:
2 weeks ago
are you trolling? lol. trying to see how far you can go defending bad music? this comes off as solipsist devil advocate arguments. by meaning i obviously mean they sing about substantial topics

romance, life, responsibility, etc all stuff we can relate to and affects us long term. not just short term forgettable pleasure like bragging about being high and having sex. its not that complicated lol. and thats not my worldview, everyone cares about the former more than the latter. unless theyre like a psychopath

jovis not even my favorite, but i like a lot of their hits.
Have you ever been high?
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Exodus » 1 week ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 week ago
Have you ever been high?
yes i get high (on cannabis) a lot. never felt the need to brag about it past like 17 lol.

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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 week ago

Exodus wrote:
1 week ago
yes i get high (on cannabis) a lot. never felt the need to brag about it past like 17 lol.
You're dismissing the potential for meaning from sex or drugs, and I'm not sure if I agree that both are always meaningless, forgettable pleasures.

I've done any hard drugs like LSD or mescaline. I know that some who have have argued that they can actually be really meaningful.
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by Admin » 1 week ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 week ago
You're dismissing the potential for meaning from sex or drugs, and I'm not sure if I agree that both are always meaningless, forgettable pleasures.

I've done any hard drugs like LSD or mescaline. I know that some who have have argued that they can actually be really meaningful.
Meaningful can be quite a weak word for what psychedelics can trigger in people:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6478303/

Atheists who converted to Christianity after trying LSD and other psychedelic substances are actually common.

But this path is dangerous, it's a gamble and you can end up seeing things that you were not prepared to see. On the outside, it will look like psychosis. On the inside, you'll be stuck in hell.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/3 ... psychosis/

As Carl Jung said: beware of wisdom that you didn't earn.
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Re: Grown men and geek stuff

Post by That Guy » 1 week ago

Admin wrote:
1 week ago
things that you were not prepared to see.
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