When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Since hair loss and dating are closely intertwined: discuss how to improve your chances with women.
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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

kj6723 wrote:
3 months ago
Yea that she probably should not have done. I still don't think this situation is anything to be getting this riled up about. Just remember that unless some kind of commitment has been made, you're not entitled to the romantic or sexual affirmations of any woman, in the same way that ugly chicks aren't entitled to romance with you. I know it's a tough pill to swallow but you'll be less bitter when you do. Trust me I'm more or less in the same boat as you. I've been making an effort lately to put myself out there more than I have for several years and I'm struggling as well, even with basically a full head of hair. This stuff is painful man and it takes a toll, but you need to learn to take it on the chin...it's the only way. Also, adapt, and simultaneously find other things in life that give you meaning rather than throw all of your hopes for a fulfilling life into the romance/sex basket
True. It‘s revealing realizing how sensitive I am regarding rejection (for which as such, again, I don‘t blame anyone) when it has to do with my looks (and with women, it almost always has to some extent in my view), and I understand that it‘s not healthy or rational.
It‘s interesting you mention your almost full head of hair. My closest friend is a NW 1 and with that better looking than me, I‘d say a weak 7. He gets rejected just as much (and he tries more), especially of course by women 6 and up. I have no reason to doubt admin‘s words and experiences, but from what I can observe for guys with similar looks as mine PLUS hair is that it‘s only somewhat easier to have even more girls willing to go for you who are below a 5, with the odd 5 or 5-6 among them. It's stunning for me to read how his world seemed to change when he got some hair back.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by JasonStatham » 3 months ago

Arjen wrote:
3 months ago
True. It‘s revealing realizing how sensitive I am regarding rejection (for which as such, again, I don‘t blame anyone) when it has to do with my looks (and with women, it almost always has to some extent in my view), and I understand that it‘s not healthy or rational.
It‘s interesting you mention your almost full head of hair. My closest friend is a NW 1 and with that better looking than me, I‘d say a weak 7. He gets rejected just as much (and he tries more), especially of course by women 6 and up. I have no reason to doubt admin‘s words and experiences, but from what I can observe for guys with similar looks as mine PLUS hair is that it‘s only somewhat easier to have even more girls willing to go for you who are below a 5, with the odd 5 or 5-6 among them. It's stunning for me to read how his world seemed to change when he got some hair back.
Can you show us the Tinder Matches you get as a solid 6.5-7. I'm curious what lovely ladies you get.

I think you have a better face than me, but less hair. But to me Face > Hair so you are better looking and I rate you in the 6.5-7.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Ok, so here comes the part where I fully admit frustration and bitterness show and are the reason: yesterday I swiped right on all women and I ended up matching with 70 women: most of them 2s or 3s, a few 4s. Funny how all of a sudden conversations are initiated by women and, sorry admin, how unoriginal and boring those "efforts" are, which is all the more interesting considering how many women write stuff like "don't just write hi or I won't text you back". but the presumptious part doesn't end there. My impression is that women usually are not even aware they are reaching, or certainly not to the extent they actually are. I know guys who are 3s or 4s, so at least on those women's looks-level, but wouldn't be given the time of the day. Admin will say, this is female nature and who are you to think you can change it. I can't and won't, that's a fact, nor have I just discovered anything new, but I'm seriously questioning my self-awareness when women are ridiculously overestimating themselves, completely unable to put dynamics such as on Tinder into perspective. Again: how stupid and delusional do you actually have to be? *Useless and cringeworthy rant over*

What I stand by though: Tinder is the epitome of female hygergamy and if you, Fred, met your lovely 7 girlfriend through that app, I congratulate the shit out of you!

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

JasonStatham wrote:
3 months ago
Can you show us the Tinder Matches you get as a solid 6.5-7. I'm curious what lovely ladies you get.

I think you have a better face than me, but less hair. But to me Face > Hair so you are better looking and I rate you in the 6.5-7.
Haha, you were a little quicker, see my rant below.

I've shown you my closest buddy's pics, he's 0.5-1 above me (mainly thanks to his hair) and he struggles with women above 5 almost as much. another one, 30-year-old-guy with hair (easily above a 5, though certainly not more than a 6): not a single LIKE (not match) in 36 hours after installing it, even swiping for women as old as 40. At this point it's not even about women (who can seemingly afford to be so selective...I say seemingly because you see a lot of them for years on this app), but that I am astonished it worked so well for admin. It can't just be location.

Whoever wants to see the matches I get on tinder, drop me a message, I won't post them publicly. It's mostly to see, if I dramatically exaggerate (and/or dramatically overestimate myself) by calling them impossible to consider.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Arjen wrote:
3 months ago
Haha, you were a little quicker, see my rant below.

I've shown you my closest buddy's pics, he's 0.5-1 above me (mainly thanks to his hair) and he struggles with women above 5 almost as much. another one, 30-year-old-guy with hair (easily above a 5, though certainly not more than a 6): not a single LIKE (not match) in 36 hours after installing it, even swiping for women as old as 40. At this point it's not even about women (who can seemingly afford to be so selective...I say seemingly because you see a lot of them for years on this app), but that I am astonished it worked so well for admin. It can't just be location.

Whoever wants to see the matches I get on tinder, drop me a message, I won't post them publicly. It's mostly to see, if I dramatically exaggerate (and/or dramatically overestimate myself) by calling them impossible to consider.
You can PM them to me.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
You can PM them to me.
OK, I'll reply here, only one of those girls was above my threshold.

Those were (almost) all the kind of girls I would have skipped, even for fun, and even for a platonic conversation.

You got to have some standards, and indeed, when I was bald, it was hard for me to get above that level, I still had dates with decent-looking girls (so above the girls you sent me) but I needed to play the numbers game like mad to get there.

You're not living in a parallel and unfair reality set against you, Arjen, this is expected on dating apps at your looks level. And this is where @JasonStatham is mostly right. You would get more chance to get a prettier girl's attention in real life but if you're not the kind of guy that girl would have swept right on Tinder, you're sure to run into problems in the future, so I'm not sure it's an ideal solution.

I'll stick to my beliefs regarding this: your value doesn't vary according to whether you try to date online or offline. You might score more easily but it's all the same in the end, the only way offline dating is advantageous is that there are girls out there that you couldn't have met online. It's always good to diversify and to try to date in the real world, but apparently, you're a bit too scared to go there, and I get it, I was the same. But you just have to ask yourself if you're serious about improving your situation.

Even if you dare to try your luck in real life, don't overdo it as rejection is not harmless as I've said before, especially for men like us. Go at it strategically, but not too much to the point that you find excuses to never approach.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago

You're not living in a parallel and unfair reality set against you, Arjen, this is expected on dating apps at your looks level.
Just to understand you correctly: you think the vast majority of girls who are below my and your threshold are (or in your case) were at "our" looks level? And that of my friend?

Sorry, Fred, I respectufully but wholeheartedly disagree, and that's not a cope, I truly believe so. :) Not saying it will change those dynamics, but no, just no, as self-aware as I surely am.

Or were you referring with regards to looksmatches to the girls who passed your threshold that you had to look like mad for?

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Arjen wrote:
3 months ago
Just to understand you correctly: you think the vast majority of girls who are below my and your threshold are (or in your case) were at "our" looks level? And that of my friend?

Sorry, Fred, I respectufully but wholeheartedly disagree, and that's not a cope, I truly believe so. :) Not saying it will change those dynamics, but no, just no, as self-aware as I surely am.

Or were you referring with regards to looksmatches to the girls who passed your threshold that you had to look like mad for?
No, to put it simply, they're uglier than us.

But.

They're women, that's just how it is and it's expected.

That's the dating market for us men, the pareto principle at play, you know, 85% of men are unattractive to all women, so it's expected that the women we'd really evoke interest in from the get-go (to the point that they message you first) would be about a couple of points below us.

You have trouble accepting this reality? It's normal, I've been there, a lot of men have, the sooner you accept it, the faster you can move on to more productive endavours, and I'm still talking about women. It's no use banging your head against the wall lamenting that reality is not like you want it to be.

You want to get there, implement real changes to your appearance that will get you there. I thought the picture of your NW1 friend was you with a "fullhead filter" or something, he looks similar to you, so yeah, you'd look much better with hair. Now don't get a failed hair transplants and blame me for it :p.

Hair, muscles, maybe minoxidil to grow a beard like you mentioned once after seeing my hair transplant results. And then you'll be there, much more at ease with a larger pool of option. I largely got there even though I have no use for that increase in my value, since I'm not on the market anymore. My fiancée is the only one who's going to enjoy it.

I don't know what else to tell you, Arjen. It's OK though, I still haven't run out of patience saying the same thing over and over again :p. I'm really trying to help you, but of course, I could be wrong, maybe there are solutions to this that I don't see.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
You would get more chance to get a prettier girl's attention in real life but if you're not the kind of guy that girl would have swept right on Tinder, you're sure to run into problems in the future, so I'm not sure it's an ideal solution.
This is a very absolute assessment that I disagree with. I know my ex wouldn't have swiped right on me, but she got to be madly attracted to me in all ways. And I mean madly.
Of course it's a whole lot easier if she finds you very attractive from the start, but if those are the choices, then I'd rather choose the uphill battle and take rejections (which hurt me a lot, yes :D ) and droughts.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
No, to put it simply, they're uglier than us.

But.

They're women, that's just how it is and it's expected.

That's the dating market for us men, the pareto principle at play, you know, 85% of men are unattractive to all women, so it's expected that the women we'd really evoke interest in from the get-go (to the point that they message you first) would be about a couple of points below us.

You have trouble accepting this reality? It's normal, I've been there, a lot of men have, the sooner you accept it, the faster you can move on to more productive endavours, and I'm still talking about women. It's no use banging your head against the wall lamenting that reality is not like you want it to be.

You want to get there, implement real changes to your appearance that will get you there. I thought the picture of your NW1 friend was you with a "fullhead filter" or something, he looks similar to you, so yeah, you'd look much better with hair. Now don't get a failed hair transplants and blame me for it :p.

Hair, muscles, maybe minoxidil to grow a beard like you mentioned once after seeing my hair transplant results. And then you'll be there, much more at ease with a larger pool of option. I largely got there even though I have no use for that increase in my value, since I'm not on the market anymore. My fiancée is the only one who's going to enjoy it.

I don't know what else to tell you, Arjen. It's OK though, I still haven't run out of patience saying the same thing over and over again :p. I'm really trying to help you, but of course, I could be wrong, maybe there are solutions to this that I don't see.
If I were to looksmax and become, say, a 7, I could still "only" date a 5 according to your (not too far-fetched) logic with the two points - this would mean I have to loosmax to become a 9 so I could date girls I find attractive. That is as unrealistic as it is frustrating. Are you saying your fiancée is a 5 then (remembering you rate yourself a 7)? I doubt it!

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Arjen wrote:
3 months ago
This is a very absolute assessment that I disagree with. I know my ex wouldn't have swiped right on me, but she got to be madly attracted to me in all ways. And I mean madly.
Of course it's a whole lot easier if she finds you very attractive from the start, but if those are the choices, then I'd rather choose the uphill battle and take rejections (which hurt me a lot, yes :D ) and droughts.
That's a tough one for me, an aspect on which I have trouble changing my views. I believe in love at first sight (yeah yeah, I'm a blue-pilled cuck), and that it should happened with the girl who's going to become you life-long partner. Now I was aware that my girlfriend was the one from the get-go, but my girlfriend was less "there" even though she kissed me very fast, it's also possible that you're not aware of your attraction, and that's how I would rationalize why your ex thought she gradually fell in love with you, to me it was always there.

Sexual and romantic attraction is something different from someone growing on you. I don't know, it's kind of something I can always feel, not just when it comes to girls, I've talked about this before, I know when I'm going to get along with someone, so maybe I project this onto others. It's something like: I meet them, we exchange a few words and it's like I see multiple exciting pathways in the conversations. I may be speaking Chinese here :p.

My fiancée and I were having a conversation about this recently, and I said something like "when we met, it's like we always knew each other" (don't vomit!) and yeah, it was true. I just noticed my analysis doesn't revolve around looks, which is where we've very different. I was probably more like you in the past, focusing a lot on looks and the girl's hotness. I think this is part of the reason you still want to give credit to Wolf Pack's extreme ideas about looks. Here's an opinion that the lookism types will despise (and also make you vomit): beauty is not solely about looks.
Arjen wrote:
3 months ago
If I were to looksmax and become, say, a 7, I could still "only" date a 5 according to your (not too far-fetched) logic with the two points - this would mean I have to loosmax to become a 9 so I could date girls I find attractive. That is as unrealistic as it is frustrating. Are you saying your fiancée is a 5 then (remembering you rate yourself a 7)? I doubt it!
My fiancée is similar to me in looks.

In the sense that when we walk hand in hand in public, you wouldn't think "he's too good for her" or the other way around.

I cannot put it more simply. Now if only you would start looking beyond looks :).

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
That's a tough one for me, an aspect on which I have trouble changing my views. I believe in love at first sight (yeah yeah, I'm a blue-pilled cuck), and that it should happened with the girl who's going to become you life-long partner. Now I was aware that my girlfriend was the one from the get-go, but my girlfriend was less "there" even though she kissed me very fast, it's also possible that you're not aware of your attraction, and that's how I would rationalize why your ex thought she gradually fell in love with you, to me it was always there.

Sexual and romantic attraction is something different from someone growing on you. I don't know, it's kind of something I can always feel, not just when it comes to girls, I've talked about this before, I know when I'm going to get along with someone, so maybe I project this onto others. It's something like: I meet them, we exchange a few words and it's like I see multiple exciting pathways in the conversations. I may be speaking Chinese here :p.

My fiancée and I were having a conversation about this recently, and I said something like "when we met, it's like we always knew each other" (don't vomit!) and yeah, it was true. I just noticed my analysis doesn't revolve around looks, which is where we've very different. I was probably more like you in the past, focusing a lot on looks and the girl's hotness. I think this is part of the reason you still want to give credit to Wolf Pack's extreme ideas about looks. Here's an opinion that the lookism types will despise (and also make you vomit): beauty is not solely about looks.



My fiancée is similar to me in looks.

In the sense that when we walk hand in hand in public, you wouldn't think "he's too good for her" or the other way around.

I cannot put it more simply. Now if only you would start looking beyond looks :).
All this stuff doesn't make me vomit, believe me, but...aren't we super beautiful then and should be appreciated accordingly for fuck's sake!? :p

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
That's a tough one for me, an aspect on which I have trouble changing my views. I believe in love at first sight (yeah yeah, I'm a blue-pilled cuck), and that it should happened with the girl who's going to become you life-long partner. Now I was aware that my girlfriend was the one from the get-go, but my girlfriend was less "there" even though she kissed me very fast, it's also possible that you're not aware of your attraction, and that's how I would rationalize why your ex thought she gradually fell in love with you, to me it was always there.

Sexual and romantic attraction is something different from someone growing on you. I don't know, it's kind of something I can always feel, not just when it comes to girls, I've talked about this before, I know when I'm going to get along with someone, so maybe I project this onto others. It's something like: I meet them, we exchange a few words and it's like I see multiple exciting pathways in the conversations. I may be speaking Chinese here :p.

My fiancée and I were having a conversation about this recently, and I said something like "when we met, it's like we always knew each other" (don't vomit!) and yeah, it was true. I just noticed my analysis doesn't revolve around looks, which is where we've very different. I was probably more like you in the past, focusing a lot on looks and the girl's hotness. I think this is part of the reason you still want to give credit to Wolf Pack's extreme ideas about looks. Here's an opinion that the lookism types will despise (and also make you vomit): beauty is not solely about looks.



My fiancée is similar to me in looks.

In the sense that when we walk hand in hand in public, you wouldn't think "he's too good for her" or the other way around.

I cannot put it more simply. Now if only you would start looking beyond looks :).
You see the, no, sorry, MY “problem” ;) with you is multi-layered: I think you are smart, I see the similarities in personality and particularly in perceptions. What you write (it’s either you know and also she knows if she genuinely finds you attractive enough from the get-go or not) is deep inside me, because it’s pretty much how it works for me regarding women. I’m reluctant to actually swallow that black-pill, but I’ve held it in my hand for a long time and you – given the aspects mentioned before – manage to intensify my feelings.

And this – and here it comes – despite repeated evidence to the contrary. A female I used to be pretty close with got into a relationship with a guy she at one point (before getting together with him) described as not her type, which is even more telling than maybe subconsciously thinking so. She still (and admittedly pretty quickly) fell for him and has ended up mourning him breaking up with her even a year after the fact. In my ex’ case it’s two years by the way, as I sadly learnt. They both would never have swiped right on me (or that guy respectively) on Tinder, nor would a girl you and Jason find a 7+ have developed a pretty serious crush on me that I never reciprocated, because, well, I DO work the way you describe and project on all women.

So what am I saying: I think like you (and often argue like you towards people in the real world – “either they like you instantly or it’s too much of a compromise on her side anyways” etc.), but deep down want to be more blue-pilled, especially since I have first hand examples that indicate it’s – while not the rule – possible.

All this lets me get back to why I had noticed your name on HairLossTalk shortly after your ban there, because I had the immediate desire to ask you:

If genuine attraction = immediate attraction(decided very quickly, according to you even on pics, if you use a right-swipe there as an ultimate indicator) is the only basis for a relationship in which you are not in for trouble sooner or later, how do you explain 2s or 3s like me? Why is it any more likely that I am in their 15%, just because they have more options? I am not, it’s about reaching as high up as you think you can (without even realizing in many women’s cases apparently). Otherwise it would be just as likely to get likes from any woman from 1-10, if it was really just about taste and related to that the fact that you happen to be in the 15% she is genuinely attracted and therefore interested in.

Most of the women on Tinder are in the top bottom 15% who know they have to go for the 85% of men, and yes, you’ll have to somewhat meet their taste within that second tier to even get a chance with them on Tinder, but this is hardly a “Wow, I’m attracted”-constellation. Appreciation for beauty is independent of your own level of attractiveness, and I am living proof of that. ;)

In the end the most plausible explanation I have is that everybody has a (mostly subconscious) looks-threshold (which I keep mentioning) - and if Tinder decides whether we pass that threshold, then goodbye my friends, because it's either BIG (much too big) compromise on her or the man's or at least my part.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Grasshopper » 3 months ago

Such a great thread!
I would like to comment on arjens comment that girls rather pick a hot abusive than a nice guy.

It has nothing to do with you. The reason is that they have zero self worth and therefore pick boyfriends that reinforce their self-image of being worthless.

And there is no way of helping them. They have to change their self image by themselves.

That has two consequences:

1. In case you actually not give a shit about them and end up hurting them, don't feel bad, they'll always find someone to hurt them.
2. If you give a shit they friendzone you, even if you dumped them before.

It's not you it's them.

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Re: When the girl seems to change her mind on a whim

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Grasshopper wrote:
3 months ago
Such a great thread!
I would like to comment on arjens comment that girls rather pick a hot abusive than a nice guy.

It has nothing to do with you. The reason is that they have zero self worth and therefore pick boyfriends that reinforce their self-image of being worthless.

And there is no way of helping them. They have to change their self image by themselves.

That has two consequences:

1. In case you actually not give a shit about them and end up hurting them, don't feel bad, they'll always find someone to hurt them.
2. If you give a shit they friendzone you, even if you dumped them before.

It's not you it's them.
I think both you and admin sense it already by my willingness to start something with the girl in question despite feeling it couldn‘t have led to anything serious: it‘s not just about being noble. If I‘m physically attracted, I care less about substance and can imagine just having some fun for a while. I don‘t blame her for hoping the next hot guy won‘t be abusive and will appreciate her more, it’s not THAT unrealistic, and I don‘t want to be chosen ONLY because I am not abusive and appreciative anyways. It would just be nice to be not hot, but good looking enough so you pass the threshold for a pretty one a bit more often. Maybe I should at least stop focusing most of my fee attempts on girls more than 10 years younger than me and my bald head, that might be a good start. ;)

Edit: as for the no action with not so attractive women knowing they may see more in me than vice versa - it was also the case with a former colleague, I rationalized why it wouldn't e a good idea, as we worked quite closely, people would talk etc. - bullshit, I just wasn't attracted. And my presumptuous ways tell me that less attractive women are in more need of protection, which is patronizing and quite ridiculous, I guess. My main hope actually is: that irl for example was deemed quite good looking by some people here, even as out of my league by Fred - and better looking than some I find pretty. So a reason hy I won't quite give up is that while not being conventionally hot and selective at the same time (plus not rejection-proof at all) makes things hard, it may also to some extent and in some cases just be bad luck and not a question of leagues that it didn't work out. Because essentially this was originally my main intention for joining the forums: am I simply a dreamer who lusts for women way out of his league. I guess not, but I'm sure facing an uphill battle.

Are you from Germany by the way, @Grasshopper ? I (and friends) have found German women (in Germany and here) to be noticeably more lenient than grls who grew up here. In fact, just yesterday an old Tinder match (German living and working in Zurich) texted me after I had forgotten to reply to a (picture) messages of hers - she's quite classy, reasonable, objectively probably better looking than me - but sadly not my cup of tea visually.
To me it really takes something that I would spontaneaously want to meet a girl like on Saturday, already having fixed a meet-up for Sunday. My friend was actually super surprised that I was up for all that, hehe. But this is how I need and want to feel, it's just not the case often, so the disappointment is all the bigger.

@Admin mentioned fawning over girls somewhere, and this reminds me of many observations of the office: it may be sad getting no action and seemingly fawn over women, but there is nothing worse in my eyes than being in a relationship (even with wife and kids) and THEN fawn over and lust after women. I never want to be that guy. Never.

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