Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Discuss proven and experimental available hair loss solutions: minoxidil, finasteride, concealers, etc.
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Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by rclark » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:31 am

Doctor Rhachita Dhurat, who is a global leader in hairloss, and specifically Androgen Alopecia, published a scientific
journal in 2013. She is also a board member of Follical.

This journal proves that Microneedling will cause hair regrowth with men ranging from Norwood three
to Norwood four, and are between 25 and 35 years old.

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp ... ast=Dhurat


This is the study published here, and can also be seen at the international goverment sponsored website as well.

What is interesting really interesting is the following:

1. 1.5 millimeters was used. Currently I have only been using 1.1 millimeters, with
some success but not that much.

People who are only using 0.5 mm are wasting their time as well.

2. She performed derma rolling on the entire scalp (vertex in addition to the hairline).

3. She clearly states that Minoxidil is a temporary solution on by itself, and claims that is the reason
most people give up on it (true fact).

4. They are only using a 5% Minoxidil solution. Nothing more than that.

The men are derma rolling vertically, horizontally, and diagonols on their hairlines. I believe it is
ten rolls in all three directions. Obviously this will cause tissue scarring.

They definitely beat the Minoxidil group, with some getting an 80% increase in hair count.

Only four men, of 50 using Microneedling/Minoxidil combination quit because of going worse. They did
much better than the group using Minoxidil alone.

Another interesting fact is that people who combine both Finasteride and Minoxidil will usually see improvement
after four months, and major improvement at that. They also have more hair than just Minoxidil alone!

In the meantime, I am using topical Finasteride, Minoxidil (15 and 30%, what a waste!), and Progesterone. It's time I start studying
scientific journals and follow the information exactly as stated.

For me, in my own experience, the Progesterone has stopped my shedding, but has not regrown much hair.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by That Guy » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:33 am

They didn't roll anywhere near hard enough to cause scar tissue.

It says "The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure"

So just until the skin was lightly red.

That is a similar procedure to what HairLossTalk's "Somebody" did and he's got the best results I've seen of a dermaroller.

Image

He also has a thread on HairLossTalk documenting his experience and a YouTube channel as well. I think it's called "Somebody Alex".

I've began dermarolling myself as of about two weeks ago, using 1.5mil

Anyway, now do you understand why I have high hopes for Follica's approach? :cool:

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by kj6723 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 pm

Somebody is a fucking hero. NW3.5 to NW1 with no transplant

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by rclark » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:45 pm

That Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:33 am
They didn't roll anywhere near hard enough to cause scar tissue.

It says "The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure"
It's just frustrating for a guy my age. I was in my late twenties before Finasteride was even approved.
That was in 1997. To be honest, taking that in my late twenties would have saved my hairline, and
I definitely wouldn't be using the "more dangerous" ones that I have recently (and stopped).

It's now 2018, other than Brotzu's solution, there's really not much available to the
public. Some people have discovered the mechanisms for hair regrowth with that, and
successfully made the chemical esquol, which has shown great results.

Obviously, all the new therapies are far surperior, including Follica.

It's just so frustrating for me that they're not even out.

In 2011, I actually believed (falsely), that Histogen would be in Mexico by 2018.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by rclark » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:45 pm

That Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:33 am
They didn't roll anywhere near hard enough to cause scar tissue.

It says "The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure"

So just until the skin was lightly red.

That is a similar procedure to what HairLossTalk's "Somebody" did and he's got the best results I've seen of a dermaroller.

Image

He also has a thread on HairLossTalk documenting his experience and a YouTube channel as well. I think it's called "Somebody Alex".

I've began dermarolling myself as of about two weeks ago, using 1.5mil

Anyway, now do you understand why I have high hopes for Follica's approach? :cool:
Great post.

I currently have more hair than the guy's before picture, on the left, believe it
or not. And I am definitely a multiple of his age (at least twice as old, if not older).

He definitely got GREAT RESULTS, so now I'm definitely a firm believer in dermarolling,
and Follica as well.

Today, I'm going to purchase a bigger needle. I'm going from 1.0 mm to 1.5 mm 8-) :mrgreen:

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by JasonStatham » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:34 pm

Sorry but, this guy got hair back even on the temples from just derma rolling? Why Ashton Kutcher isn't doing it? Why I dont see on every men magazine we have the cure for hair loss? My problem with this before and after pic is, why should I believe some random dude on hairlosstalk? I'm not saying it does not help your hair, but his results are beyond magic. It looks like some high-end surgeon put 4000k grafts on his head.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by That Guy » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:30 pm

His results are really not that much better than the Dhurat study, to be honest. His results are just more prominent because of the improvement to the hairline.

So, I don't think he's conning people, personally.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by Rudiger » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:17 pm

I started dermarolling a few weeks ago, I believe it was @kj6723 who informed me about Somebody that peaked my interest, so thanks for that KJ. Also I appreciate @That Guy's clarity in the thread that the study isn't based on creating scar tissue, which is vital, you don't completely wreck the follicle in order to build it up again, that obviously wouldn't work.

Also I think it should be noted that the study only had a weekly derma rolling session, I believe Somebody does it daily. I haven't got in to a routine yet but I was planning on doing it daily.

So a few questions I have since starting-

Frequency and cleaning it- I understand you should leave the needles in rubbing alcohol as re-using it with dead skin can cause an infection. Now this is the kinda thing where I'm normally like "eh fuck it" but I have had a few spots on my head before, and a full blown infection + diffuse thinning, bad fucking look. I'd be seriously regretting it and feel dumb. So I clean the roller after each use, run warm water on it for a few minutes and then leave in alcohol for 10mins (sometimes I just leave it in the alcohol and don't take it out, does this potentially blunt the needles or anything?) but doing this daily is going to be fucking annoying actually, you have to use quite a lot of alcohol to fill a little cap that can immerse the full derma. So I'd re-use the alcohol but I swear, the shit evaporates, even when covered, I come back the next day and the caps empty, no leaking or anything, just gone. It's annoying enough having to hide bottles of alcohol, on top of minoxidil, pills, nizoral I just leave out and it just says anti-dandruff so nobody would know, but I've only derma-rolled several times and already halfway through a 750ml bottle of rubbing alcohol, if I was doing it daily I'd need a new bottle like every 2 weeks. So how often should I do it? Is weekly fine? Why does Somebody choose daily and is this why he's had great results?

Method of applying- as in, number of strokes back and forth, going over the same part of the skin, etc.

So here's a video KJ sent me on how to apply the derma:



So he's stroking back and forth about 4-6 times, which counts as each roll being in total 8-12 strokes. I'm a bit confused about going over the same part of the skin repeatedly because I've read from the dermaroller direction leaflet and also various online sources (mainly women talking about derma rolling for the face and tighter skin) that you don't roll back and forth, because the needles will repeat over the exact same skin "holes" you're creating and cause unnecessary scarring.

However, this being said, I did watch some women's videos on dermarolling for the face (I might try this for skin actually), and these aren't amateur youtubers or anything they knew everything about the application in huge amounts of detail. So when it came to actual application, they just ran back and forth the exact same as Somebody does it (and the natural way you'd want to do it) even though the leaflet and other articles I read warned against doing this, and instead run it forward, lift it up off the skin, and run it forward at the same spot again, instead of back and forth which runs over the same exact follicles each time.

Needless to say I just run it back and forth, seeing as that's all I've seen people do online, despite what the warnings are. I'm curious if everyone else does it this way? Does anyone even give a shit?

Also I'd like to know why @JasonStatham thinks that Somebody is "conning" us, what exactly is he getting from this? His 500 youtube views? So he started updating his success on HairLossTalk about a decade ago, several years on and he starts a youtube channel which he updates infrequently, with such low viewing figures that I doubt he's even made $20 in total from all his revenue combined.

Where does the "con" come in? He's making money off the dermaroller companies or something? I think I've only ever seen once where he gave the type of dermaroller he uses (clearly just as advice), if he was making anything off of them he'd have it plastered on every video and post.

I mean at the very most we could think it's a guy who got a hair transplant and is trolling us, but damn what an elaborate trolling that would be, years of effort to not even really piss anyone off (as like with other treatments, nobody goes in to this expecting guaranteed results).

It just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by JasonStatham » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:31 pm

That Guy wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:30 pm
His results are really not that much better than the Dhurat study, to be honest. His results are just more prominent because of the improvement to the hairline.

So, I don't think he's conning people, personally.
Again, if the results are so good, it would be on every men magazine's cover. The same with the other 50 thousand products people claim helped for hairloss. A lot of youtube videos are out there with sometimes over 1 million views and often very little dislikes ratio (over 90 percent likes) from men and women, telling you eating (insert some magical herb) or the common: "how no fap make me shredded and stopped my balding" etc etc.


I agree that a lot of stuff is out there, that can slightly improve your hair (thicker, healthier). But growing hair on bald spots it's not possible without hair transplant.

And for the *trolling" part of the guy: Why does only one guy on a big forum have such amazing results with derma rolling? Don't you think thousands of other men are rolling? Why are they not posting it? People do a lot of stuff for various reasons. He could do it simply for attention or he is really just trolling. A trolling guy on the Internet. I do think that happens.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by Rudiger » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:46 pm

JasonStatham wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:31 pm
Again, if the results are so good, it would be on every men magazine's cover.
I'm still wondering as per my question in the post above, what do you think he's getting out of this? Where exactly does the money come in to this?

And nobody here (as far as I know) is remotely saying it's going to work this great for every single guy. For whatever reason, this Somebody man is a great responder to his scalp cells repairing themselves and improving his follicle growth. He very likely is in the small minority, he could be top 20% results, it could be top 0.01% results (which I'd actually say is more likely than 20%)

When it comes to treatments, by no means would I say to just try anything to save hair as it's likely you'll just be losing money, time, and most importantly, more hair. As well as that devastating feeling of really trying to improve your hair and the results are like spitting you back in the face.

But dermarolling is very cheap, doesn't take up much time (especially if doing once a week) and also just like in the OP, there's been studies that have shown it's effectiveness. Sure it's highly unlikely you'll have a mane like Somebody but if there's re-growth happening for one guy, as well as many others in studies, I'll try and make the most of whatever re-growth it may offer me.

Pretty simple. If you're going to give advice that's putting people off a potentially decent treatment and you're putting them off based solely on a hunch, you should at least spell out what you think this guy gets out of conning us over the course of nearly a decade now.

Is it money? Trolling? Because neither seem like logical conclusions.

If you think it's bullshit because the studies are inconclusive or there's been conflicting studies then fine, that would be something, but instead you think it's bullshit because you have a feeling a guy got a hair transplant and is messing with us? That's really not good enough.
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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by Rudiger » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 pm

JasonStatham wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:31 pm
And for the *trolling" part of the guy: Why does only one guy on a big forum have such amazing results with derma rolling? Don't you think thousands of other men are rolling? Why are they not posting it? People do a lot of stuff for various reasons. He could do it simply for attention or he is really just trolling. A trolling guy on the Internet. I do think that happens.
This was added after I wrote my post above.

OK trolling, of course people troll on the internet.

For. 9. Years?!

He first wrote his posts on HairLossTalk 9 years ago, after 8 years he started his Youtube channel, which gets barely any views really. He posts infrequently on the HairLossTalk and barely responds to most posts, he's put his face out there for all to see and his Facebook too, he's clearly not an attention whore.

I don't really understand how you could jump to such a conclusion, and by omitting the fact it was a decade of trolling, I do think you realise it's a flimsy or extreme claim to come to. But we won't agree there and that's the end of it.

What about the study in the OP?
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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by Admin » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:01 pm

Rudiger wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:46 pm
I'm still wondering as per my question in the post above, what do you think he's getting out of this? Where exactly does the money come in to this?

And nobody here (as far as I know) is remotely saying it's going to work this great for every single guy. For whatever reason, this Somebody man is a great responder to his scalp cells repairing themselves and improving his follicle growth. He very likely is in the small minority, he could be top 20% results, it could be top 0.01% results (which I'd actually say is more likely than 20%)

When it comes to treatments, by no means would I say to just try anything to save hair as it's likely you'll just be losing money, time, and most importantly, more hair. As well as that devastating feeling of really trying to improve your hair and the results are like spitting you back in the face.

But dermarolling is very cheap, doesn't take up much time (especially if doing once a week) and also just like in the OP, there's been studies that have shown it's effectiveness. Sure it's highly unlikely you'll have a mane like Somebody but if there's re-growth happening for one guy, as well as many others in studies, I'll try and make the most of whatever re-growth it may offer me.

Pretty simple. If you're going to give advice that's putting people off a potentially decent treatment and you're putting them off based solely on a hunch, you should at least spell out what you think this guy gets out of conning us over the course of nearly a decade now.

Is it money? Trolling? Because neither seem like logical conclusions.

If you think it's bullshit because the studies are inconclusive or there's been conflicting studies then fine, that would be something, but instead you think it's bullshit because you have a feeling a guy got a hair transplant and is messing with us? That's really not good enough.
As cliché as is sounds, I'd just refer you to Alfred's famous line in the movie The Dark Knight:

"Some people just want to see the world burn."

This case springs to mind: http://hairlosshelp.com/FORUMS/messagev ... did=110807

Go to the last post in that thread.

Those cases are pretty rare but they exist and they are the ones you should by particularly weary of.

Now I'm not taking any sides here, I wish it worked but Jason has a strong point when he's asking where the hell are all the other results of people who have stumbled on this? We should have boatloads of guys telling us how excited they are from the regrowth they got from microneedling.

Anyway, definitely keep a long on here and I really hope something positive happens for you. If it's the case, I might jump on it to revigorate my slowly dying crown. Though what I'm most concerned about is tearing my hair out with the needles.

I've been on the dermarolling train before, but I stopped when I accidentally rolled on my forehead and got myself PIE (post-inflammatory erythema) and the thing was bitch to get rid of. After a couple of months, I found a great dermatologist who lasered it.

You can still find my post about it on reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddict ... ie/cg72rmr

Pretty bad experience for a guy with a mild case of BDD. One should really be careful with those experimental treatments and take those before/after pictures with a grain of salt.
Hair transplants: 2000 graft (May 2014) and 2024 graft (January 2018) FUE's with Dr. De Reys for front and mid-scalp.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by Rudiger » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:27 pm

Admin wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:01 pm
Now I'm not taking any sides here, I wish it worked but Jason has a strong point when he's asking where the hell are all the other results of people who have stumbled on this? We should have boatloads of guys telling us how excited they are from the regrowth they got from microneedling.
I did just address this, nobody is claiming it's going to work for everyone, in the same way finasteride actually grows hair for people, and others insist that this is impossible and the best it can do is maintain.

This Somebody guy could be a top 0.01% responder or a top 20% responder (though it's unlikely there's even this many). Point is, it's not highly expensive or time consuming, so I don't see the harm in trying something that is also backed with a study like in the OP (which nobody is addressing and instead pointing out the obvious fact that it's not going to fully regrow everyone's hair).

Any chance of hair gains to add to my current hair gains are welcome and I'll throw my scalp in that lottery.

We don't have boatloads of people because it obviously won't be the end all answer for the vast majority of guys, but some have claimed some regrowth, most probably wouldn't, and as we know, there's always gonna be success stories that get their hair back, and never have to come on a hair loss forum again (and who could blame them).
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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by That Guy » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:44 pm

JasonStatham wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:31 pm
Again, if the results are so good, it would be on every men magazine's cover. The same with the other 50 thousand products people claim helped for hairloss. A lot of youtube videos are out there with sometimes over 1 million views and often very little dislikes ratio (over 90 percent likes) from men and women, telling you eating (insert some magical herb) or the common: "how no fap make me shredded and stopped my balding" etc etc.


I agree that a lot of stuff is out there, that can slightly improve your hair (thicker, healthier). But growing hair on bald spots it's not possible without hair transplant.

And for the *trolling" part of the guy: Why does only one guy on a big forum have such amazing results with derma rolling? Don't you think thousands of other men are rolling? Why are they not posting it? People do a lot of stuff for various reasons. He could do it simply for attention or he is really just trolling. A trolling guy on the Internet. I do think that happens.
Growing hair on bald spots is possible without a transplant. That's what studies like Dhurat, BBQ Man, etc. prove, dude.

There's also this weird thing in the "hairloss community" where there's this idea that if something must work than the media must be all over it. I'd actually be more concerned about something the media is pushing. Also, these results have been talked about extensively back in 2013, as any google search will reveal.

Then, there are a lot of fools who basically took steak knives to their scalps expecting maximum regrowth. But things like the dhurat study were done by professionals in a lab, and as they even say at the end of the study:

"However, issues regarding Microneedling viz; different sizes of needles of the dermaroller, frequency, duration and end point of the procedure are yet to be answered."

In short: There are a lot of unknown factors that influence how effective it is.

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Re: Dermarolling and using current treatments to enhance regrowth

Post by That Guy » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:04 pm

Further, I stand by my point that his results aren't much better than Dhurat's study. It's just that he got better results on the hairline. To be fair, I can't recall atm if they actually even tried it on the hairline in the dhurat study or if it was just the crown/vertex because that's common in hairloss experiments.

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