FUT vs FUE

Discuss hair transplant techniques (FUE and FUT), surgeons, results, etc.
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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by JasonStatham » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:53 am

I'm glad I decided to do an FUE because you absolutely see nothing on my back even when its short-short which is amazing.
But to do a mega session for 5000k graft or more, its a pain in the ass to do FUE. That would be about 3-4 days of sitting in a chair lol.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Admin » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:05 am

JasonStatham wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:53 am
I'm glad I decided to do an FUE because you absolutely see nothing on my back even when its short-short which is amazing.
But to do a mega session for 5000k graft or more, its a pain in the ass to do FUE. That would be about 3-4 days of sitting in a chair lol.
True but it's just not a good idea aside from careless Turkish surgeons who are just after cash, very few ethical surgeons will do more than 2500-3000 in one pass. I recall one horror story of a guy getting some kind of infection after getting 5000 grafts at once, but it was a long time ago.

It's not obvious that your scalp can take so many grafts at once. That's also why I chose to start with 2000 grafts even as a NW5, to test the waters, it worked very well so I went for another 2000. But imagine blasting 4000 grafts at once and it fails (meaning few of the grafts take), that would be scary.

People need to remember that it's plastic surgery, and undoubtedly the hardest one to pull off aesthetically, you don't just have to be a great surgeon, you have to be an artist, you need to have the eye, which I believe only very few surgeons in the world have. De Reys has it in my opinion, the way he places the grafts and manages to cover a lot of ground with little still baffles me.

Anyway, if a surgeon suggests 5000 grafts in one pass, find another surgeon.
Hair transplants: 2000 graft (May 2014) and 2024 graft (January 2018) FUE's with Dr. De Reys for front and mid-scalp.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by JasonStatham » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:41 pm

Admin wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:05 am
True but it's just not a good idea aside from careless Turkish surgeons who are just after cash, very few ethical surgeons will do more than 2500-3000 in one pass. I recall one horror story of a guy getting some kind of infection after getting 5000 grafts at once, but it was a long time ago.

It's not obvious that your scalp can take so many grafts at once. That's also why I chose to start with 2000 grafts even as a NW5, to test the waters, it worked very well so I went for another 2000. But imagine blasting 4000 grafts at once and it fails (meaning few of the grafts take), that would be scary.

People need to remember that it's plastic surgery, and undoubtedly the hardest one to pull off aesthetically, you don't just have to be a great surgeon, you have to be an artist, you need to have the eye, which I believe only very few surgeons in the world have. De Reys has it in my opinion, the way he places the grafts and manages to cover a lot of ground with little still baffles me.

Anyway, if a surgeon suggests 5000 grafts in one pass, find another surgeon.
You can do FUT mega sessions if you have a good team behind it.
With FUE you can't really do that because its a pain in the ass for everyone involved and after 5-6 hours of putting Graft from A to B your hand will get tired as fuck and you are very limited of how many Grafts you can do per day.

A lot of people get amazing results from Mega Session (not in Turkey) and they are happy with it. Of course you will have a visible scar if you buzz it short.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by JeanLucBB » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:05 am

JasonStatham wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:41 pm
You can do FUT mega sessions if you have a good team behind it.
With FUE you can't really do that because its a pain in the ass for everyone involved and after 5-6 hours of putting Graft from A to B your hand will get tired as fuck and you are very limited of how many Grafts you can do per day.

A lot of people get amazing results from Mega Session (not in Turkey) and they are happy with it. Of course you will have a visible scar if you buzz it short.
Honestly this is false, Erdogan in Turkey does FUE megasessions at the 5000 graft level over 2 days on a regular basis and his results in consistency and yield are as good as anyone globally. Hundreds of cases online don't lie. They do roughly 1000 grafts per hour with a manual punch. This is where the tech based model is actually better because it means you have 1 team of extractors doing 3 hours a day, Erdogan himself doing 45 minutes of incisions and another team for 3 hours of placement. Fatigue is less of an issue.

Apart from Erdogan no one else is doing it on a daily basis, but the reality is no one is getting the magnitude of cosmetic change he is. Nor do they have his level of skill at donor management, which he bases on a mathematical system that Lorenzo also uses rather than rough estimates and hoping for the best like 99% of other FUE surgeons use.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by JasonStatham » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:15 am

JeanLucBB wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:05 am
rough estimates and hoping for the best like 99% of other FUE surgeons use
That is true. Even the 99% number could be right which is sad. Just putting 5k grafts in hoping it will work.

"Doc what I do in 10 years? Do I still have Grafts left?"

"Yeah yeah of course"

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Hanginginthewire » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:57 am

JeanLucBB wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:51 am
The fundamental issue with FUT is that you cannot cut your hair shorter than a number 3 without it being blatantly evident you have a scar, the harsh angulation on either side of the scar is often visible, most people have some shock loss around the scar and you cannot harvest FUE grafts from directly around the scar without it becoming noticeable. There is just a drastically larger risk to the donor for FUT even with top surgeons that you don't see with top FUE surgeons. Yes many people get lucky and have an FUT scar that is virtually invisible, but what about the 25% who go to top surgeons like Rahal, Konior, or Hasson/Wong and come out with what is effectively a butchered donor area for which FUE is barely an option anymore? Or a scar visible after a month of growth like I saw on a Rahal patient recently.

The reality is that FUE is better suited to 90% of modern patients and that less and less people want to risk FUT. There will be top clinics like Hattingen or Hasson and Wong doing large mega sessions of 5000+ grafts for FUT on Norwood 5 and aboves with poor donors for whom it is worth it, but elsewhere it will largely die out. It has a niche appeal at this point.

Look at the results on a diverse range of patients from Lorenzo, Erdogan, Freitas, Couto and Baubac. Thousands of cases for evidence can't be too good to be true.

And yes Dimuzio would likely only have one scar.
Why would FUT fuck up a person’s donor? I thought the whole idea was you remove the strip, leaving the other areas (not along the strip line) virgin?

Okay, so it is correct that the technique now is to “cut out” the initial scar with each subsequent FUT? Even still, one Joker scar is too many.

Do you think a slow diffuser (patterned) is better off with FUE or FUT? Why?

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by JeanLucBB » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:11 am

Hanginginthewire wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:57 am
Why would FUT fuck up a person’s donor? I thought the whole idea was you remove the strip, leaving the other areas (not along the strip line) virgin?

Okay, so it is correct that the technique now is to “cut out” the initial scar with each subsequent FUT? Even still, one Joker scar is too many.

Do you think a slow diffuser (patterned) is better off with FUE or FUT? Why?
The thing people don't seem to grasp is they only look at the best cases of FUT, for example on hairrestorationetwork recently there was a Konior patient who had permanent shockloss surrounding his scar, including a visible change in angulation either side of it. Another Rahal patient for whom had this and a large indendation in the area that was visible at about a month of growth. People like to ignore this and point to the great cases where there are virtually no visible issues. FUE with a top surgeon using a manual punch is dare I saw virtually never hit-or-miss in terms of visible damage to the donor, no one who has had an FUE with Erdogan for example even at the 6000 graft level is dealing with anything as bad as fucked up change in angulation between either side of the scar and an indentation of this. The shock loss around the scar issue is very common too. Yes typically FUT leaves other areas pristine, but also has a risk of not doing so that isn't completely in the hands of the surgeon, but rather physiology.

Yes the initial scar is used for subsequent procedures.

Depends on how long you'd want to keep your donor in future, your norwood, if you're on meds, your donor quality etc. Its a bigger question than just that. Basically if you're only thinning in the NW5 area and are on meds I would likely go FUE. NW6 and likely FUT.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Hanginginthewire » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:32 pm

JeanLucBB wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:11 am
The thing people don't seem to grasp is they only look at the best cases of FUT, for example on hairrestorationetwork recently there was a Konior patient who had permanent shockloss surrounding his scar, including a visible change in angulation either side of it. Another Rahal patient for whom had this and a large indendation in the area that was visible at about a month of growth. People like to ignore this and point to the great cases where there are virtually no visible issues. FUE with a top surgeon using a manual punch is dare I saw virtually never hit-or-miss in terms of visible damage to the donor, no one who has had an FUE with Erdogan for example even at the 6000 graft level is dealing with anything as bad as fucked up change in angulation between either side of the scar and an indentation of this. The shock loss around the scar issue is very common too. Yes typically FUT leaves other areas pristine, but also has a risk of not doing so that isn't completely in the hands of the surgeon, but rather physiology.

Yes the initial scar is used for subsequent procedures.

Depends on how long you'd want to keep your donor in future, your norwood, if you're on meds, your donor quality etc. Its a bigger question than just that. Basically if you're only thinning in the NW5 area and are on meds I would likely go FUE. NW6 and likely FUT.
What is the reason that so many doctors (or their advocates) say that FUE is only for select cases? Is it sheer laziness?

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by JeanLucBB » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:43 pm

Hanginginthewire wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:32 pm
What is the reason that so many doctors (or their advocates) say that FUE is only for select cases? Is it sheer laziness?
They aren't experienced in doing large cases or performing FUE quickly. The vast majority can't afford American FUE rates for large graft numbers either which are largely dictated by wages and rent costs, so ultimately they don't get the same amount of business for it in terms of large cases. On top of that in most of the US its illegal for techs to do extractions which isn't the case in Europe, meaning they can't do as many patients a day further increasing prices and fatigue of working 8 hours a day. Those are the main differences as to why the mindset is so different between Europe and the USA.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Hanginginthewire » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:17 pm

JeanLucBB wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:43 pm
They aren't experienced in doing large cases or performing FUE quickly. The vast majority can't afford American FUE rates for large graft numbers either which are largely dictated by wages and rent costs, so ultimately they don't get the same amount of business for it in terms of large cases. On top of that in most of the US its illegal for techs to do extractions which isn't the case in Europe, meaning they can't do as many patients a day further increasing prices and fatigue of working 8 hours a day. Those are the main differences as to why the mindset is so different between Europe and the USA.
Thanks for answering these questions.

I guess I’m left wondering why they don’t just say this? Presumably competition?

You yourself were headed for NW5, correct?

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Hanginginthewire » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:59 am



Kind of a sequel to the original video. Would love to hear from admin and JeanLuc or anyone else.

TLDW - FUE megasessions (or FUE in general) goes outside the safe zone.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Admin » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:27 pm

Hanginginthewire wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:59 am
TLDW - FUE megasessions (or FUE in general) goes outside the safe zone.
The surgeon's a bozo.

Here's my donor area after 4024 grafts have been extracted:

Image

The avantage with my kind of hair loss is that you can see exactly where the safe zone is.

De Reys never went out and he's not going to for the last surgery. When my hair is grown out, you can tell that it's still thick as hell and that there is still room for a last procedure.

5000-6000 grafts with FUE is possible for most people. As @JeanLucBB said, that American surgeon is just jelly that he'll never be able to offer the prices that Turkish and some European clinics offer. And that YouTuber is getting money for featuring him on his channel.

He's defending his business and he's heavily biased. I would put my limit at 6000 grafts with FUE, go beyond that and there will be an esthetic impact on the donor area even when it's grown out. After those 6000 grafts, you should look into beard grafts and temporary SMP. These are the best options we have at the moment.
Hair transplants: 2000 graft (May 2014) and 2024 graft (January 2018) FUE's with Dr. De Reys for front and mid-scalp.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Hanginginthewire » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:47 pm

Admin wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:27 pm
The surgeon's a bozo.

Here's my donor area after 4024 grafts have been extracted:

Image

The avantage with my kind of hair loss is that you can see exactly where the safe zone is.

De Reys never went out and he's not going to for the last surgery. When my hair is grown out, you can tell that it's still thick as hell and that there is still room for a last procedure.

5000-6000 grafts with FUE is possible for most people. As @JeanLucBB said, that American surgeon is just jelly that he'll never be able to offer the prices that Turkish and some European clinics offer. And that YouTuber is getting money for featuring him on his channel.

He's defending his business and he's heavily biased. I would put my limit at 6000 grafts with FUE, go beyond that and there will be an esthetic impact on the donor area even when it's grown out. After those 6000 grafts, you should look into beard grafts and temporary SMP. These are the best options we have at the moment.
Thanks again, really appreciate your responses. Yeah, DiMuzio is a money-grubber for sure.

How low into your nape were your extractions?

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by Admin » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:42 pm

Hanginginthewire wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:47 pm
How low into your nape were your extractions?
Quite low but it seems that the nape will never budge in my case.

You know my case, I started balding aggressively at the age of 16 and had already lost all the hair I could lose at the age of 22.

6 years later, not much has changed. The crown may be a bit balder but it's extremely slow, some hair on the crown are still terminal.

My point is, the hair that hasn't been affected yet seems there to stay.

Off topic: it was more or less the same pattern when I developped myopia in my teens.

Between the age of 14 and 15, I got to minus 1.00 and 1.25 in each eye, and it never got worse, that's why I got the green light for my PRK surgery at the age of 21. And since then it hasn't gotten worse either.

Funny how it works sometimes. People online would vehemently tell me (DoctorHouse on HairlossTalk was one of them actually) that it would get worse and that I was bozo (well maybe that's my word) for getting PRK so young.
Hair transplants: 2000 graft (May 2014) and 2024 graft (January 2018) FUE's with Dr. De Reys for front and mid-scalp.

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Re: FUE vs. FUT Hair Transplant - What You NEED to Know

Post by supremegentleman » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:30 pm

@Admin can you list all surgeries you had done? It seems like you had a few from your writing. How do you get money to fund them? Sorry for going off topic. You are fascinating to me. In a good way. I was thinking of getting laser eye surgery too.

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