Making sense of the current political climate

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
That''s not racism because:

(1) Islam is NOT a race.

(2) He did it out of security concern. He ONLY included six or seven Muslim majority countries that he considers a security threat for the USA. If it truly was a "Muslim" ban, he would have imposed ban on all 55-56 Muslim majority countries. He didn't. I don't agree with the ban but using it as an evidence of "institutional racism" in America is simply false.
Venezuela and North Korea are also on the list. Very few Muslims in these two countries.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by That Guy » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
Venezuela and North Korea are also on the list. Very few Muslims in these two countries.
Plenty of communists, though

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Hairblues » 1 year ago

You have Gulianni on FOX actually admitting they created it purposely to be a Muslim ban

I mean if you agree with his policies, fair enough. But let’s not play this game where he doesn’t mean what he actually says.

Someone said recently (can’t recall source), for such a plain spoken man, people really twist themselves into pretzels trying to analyze or explain away his words

Take him at his word. It was a Muslim band with the intentions of limiting or stopping Muslims from coming into the country.

That was from his lips from his rally.
From guliannis lips on Fox

It bothers me less if people just like him for who he really is, and his policies as they are, than people who want to play word games.
“Oh no he didn’t really mean to single out Muslims.’

Lol come on guys keep it real.

He’s a Christian US nationalist. Or at least playing one on TV and with his policies for his base

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
That''s not racism because:

(1) Islam is NOT a race.

(2) He did it out of security concern. He ONLY included six or seven Muslim majority countries that he considers a security threat for the USA. If it truly was a "Muslim" ban, he would have imposed ban on all 55-56 Muslim majority countries. He didn't. I don't agree with the ban but using it as an evidence of "institutional racism" in America is simply false.
He didn’t do it out of security concern. If he did, he would have banned Saudi Arabians. He did it as a symbolic move to appease his far right base who are extremely bigoted. He knew he coukdn’t do it with Saudi Arabia because he and Kushner are financially involved with Bin Salman and Saudi real estate companies, so he just picked a bunch of countries America, Saudi Arabia and Israel want to destroy and banned those Muslims instead. His base would like to ban all Muslims, and he knows it. This his compromise, appease his base, appease Saudi Arabia, achieve nothing.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
He didn’t do it out of security concern. If he did, he would have banned Saudi Arabians. He did it as a symbolic move to appease his far right base who are extremely bigoted. He knew he coukdn’t do it with Saudi Arabia because he and Kushner are financially involved with Bin Salman and Saudi real estate companies, so he just picked a bunch of countries America, Saudi Arabia and Israel want to destroy and banned those Muslims instead. His base would like to ban all Muslims, and he knows it. This his compromise, appease his base, appease Saudi Arabia, achieve nothing.
I am well aware that he didn't ban Saudi Arabia. Not only that he didn't ban Pakistan, the country that actually provided refuge to Laden. He instead banned a bunch of harmless countries. But these facts don't prove that there is an institutional racism in America(the point you originally argued). The only things that these facts show is Trump is trying to satisfy his base, a practice that politicians usually engage in.

And please don't associate Islam with racism. Islam is not a race. This point may seem trivial or unimportant to you. You might claim that by racism you simply means bigotry but still the distinction is extremely important. I can go into more detail as to why I think so if you are interested.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

Racism was a poor choice of words, I corrected myself to bigotry in my second post. Regardless, I’m glad that you concede that the Muslim travel ban was not due to genuine security, that he did not ban the countries that are historically the greatest source of terrorism, and that the move was to appease his base, a large proportion of whom are bigots, as both I and hairblues have asserted. I still totally disagree that there is no institutional racism. The incarceration rate and community policing issues, even testimonies of former police officers refuted this claim. It is largely dependent on country, but athe rise of the right wing and fascism is a great source of concern to me, far more than irritating SJWs and their 50 different gender pronouns.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Racism was a poor choice of words, I corrected myself to bigotry in my second post. Regardless, I’m glad that you concede that the Muslim travel ban was not due to genuine security, that he did not ban the countries that are historically the greatest source of terrorism, and that the move was to appease his base, a large proportion of whom are bigots, as both I and hairblues have asserted. I still totally disagree that there is no institutional racism. The incarceration rate and community policing issues, even testimonies of former police officers refuted this claim. It is largely dependent on country, but athe rise of the right wing and fascism is a great source of concern to me, far more than irritating SJWs and their 50 different gender pronouns.
Muslims are a threat no matter where they come from. And that comes from a guy whose best friend is Muslim. On an individual level, they can be just like the vast majority of us in the West: tolerant, for freedom, kind, reasonable, etc.

But collectively, once they get together in a mob so to speak, watch out. The vast majority of them are profoundly antisemitic, misogynistic, against gay people, want to cover their women and they are dead against abortion. And they reject the separation of Church / mosque and State.

You want as few of them as you can in our free secular societies. The US are right to limit immigration from those backwards countries. They've seen what's happening to us in Europe and it's understandable that they don't want to make the same mistake.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

Admin wrote:
1 year ago
Muslims are a threat no matter where they come from. And that comes from a guy whose best friend is Muslim. On an individual level, they can be just like the vast majority of us in the West: tolerant, for freedom, kind, reasonable, etc.

But collectively, once they get together in a mob so to speak, watch out. The vast majority of them are profoundly antisemitic, misogynistic, against gay people, want to cover their women and they are dead against abortion. And they reject the separation of Church / mosque and State.

You want as few of them as you can in our free secular societies. The US are right to limit immigration from those backwards countries. They've seen what's happening to us in Europe and it's understandable that they don't want to make the same mistake.
You see, this is quite worrying to hear. If you had said Wahhabi, Salafist, Saudi indoctrinated Muslims, I might have agreed with you. Just as if you had said right wing Evangelical Christians or Zionist Jews. Then there are the Alwawite Muslims, the Shia Muslims (remember, Iran is a consequence if regime change wars and having a dictator forced on them by CIA coup, so that one is quite complex). In South East Asia, Malay Muslims are really quite peaceful, I wouldn't call them dangerous at all. Indonesia has had a female prime minister and the current PM is a metal head (there are other issues, but he's no fundamentalist. This is why statements like you made above are deeply troubling. The western world hasn't been enlightened for very long. In the 1960s, black people were still facing segregation laws. In the 1980s, Western nations were still supporting apartheid in South Africa. Up until the 1980s, homosexuality was still illegal in my country, Ireland, a country that just 30 years later has a gay half Indian PM, and was the first to legalize gay marriage by democratic referendum! And in America, state by state, tolerance for blacks, for gays etc is still really poor in some parts. These things usually aren't considered by the right, nor is the fact that Western nations have had a deliberate policy of fighting against secular Arab nationalism, supporting the right wing fundamentalists.

I don't think this is an Islam issue. I think this is a right wing, fundamentalist issue, and that Evangelical Christians, Zionist Jews, and Wahhabi Muslims are all equally dangerous and destructive.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Regardless, I’m glad that you concede that the Muslim travel ban was not due to genuine security, that he did not ban the countries that are historically the greatest source of terrorism, and that the move was to appease his base, a large proportion of whom are bigots, as both I and hairblues have asserted.
No I don''t exactly concede what you are suggesting. I will elucidate my differences in the following paragraphs.

I agree that Trump's travel ban AFTER he became president was probably more aimed at appeasing his base. However, when he initially proposed his travel ban, before he became president, it was genuinely out of security concern. If my memory serves me, candidate Trump passed his initial statement around the time of terrorist attacks in Paris and St. Bernadino. I remember him saying something along the lines of, "We should stop Muslims from coming in UNTIL we figure out what's going on and have a proper vetting process". Is this really a crazy position? I think once he became president he realized that these things are not as easy to implement as they can go against Americas national interest.

Also, I take issue with your claim that a large proportion of his supporters are bigots. It's not unreasonable if his base wants a proper vetting process in the light of all the terrorist attacks and wide spread problematic beliefs among Muslims(as shown by data) that are anathema to a free, democratic, secular society. Why should America take such a risk? Trumps base thinks that America doesn't own anyone anything and they will do what's in the interest of the country. What's wrong with this view? If Trumps base was really so bigoted then why aren't they clamoring about banning Hindus, Buddhists, Jains,etc? Why only Muslims? Do you ever stop and think about that? Have you met a Trump supporter? I lived in a very conservative part of the country dominated by Trump supporters. These "bigoted" Trump supporters have always embraced me with an open arm. Me, a brown, Indian, Hindu guy. I worked with them, went to college with them, dated them and even married into their family. Never felt an ounce of bigotry.

When Pakistanes visit India, we have spies following them around. Why do you think that is? It's because Pakistanis are vastly more likely to engage in activities that are not in Indias interest compared to other foreigners. Whenever India-Pakistan wen to war, a section of Indian army used to be deployed in the areas where Indian Muslims lived. You know why? Because INDIAN Muslims hated it when India went to war against Pakistan, a Muslim majority country. Indian government feared that they would rebel against their own country in favor of Pakistan. Was the government of India bigoted? No, it was common sense. However, for some reason, common sense is called "bigotry" in the west. Imagine if in the time of war America or an European country does something like that.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
You see, this is quite worrying to hear. If you had said Wahhabi, Salafist, Saudi indoctrinated Muslims, I might have agreed with you. Just as if you had said right wing Evangelical Christians or Zionist Jews. Then there are the Alwawite Muslims, the Shia Muslims (remember, Iran is a consequence if regime change wars and having a dictator forced on them by CIA coup, so that one is quite complex). In South East Asia, Malay Muslims are really quite peaceful, I wouldn't call them dangerous at all. Indonesia has had a female prime minister and the current PM is a metal head (there are other issues, but he's no fundamentalist. This is why statements like you made above are deeply troubling. The western world hasn't been enlightened for very long. In the 1960s, black people were still facing segregation laws. In the 1980s, Western nations were still supporting apartheid in South Africa. Up until the 1980s, homosexuality was still illegal in my country, Ireland, a country that just 30 years later has a gay half Indian PM, and was the first to legalize gay marriage by democratic referendum! And in America, state by state, tolerance for blacks, for gays etc is still really poor in some parts. These things usually aren't considered by the right, nor is the fact that Western nations have had a deliberate policy of fighting against secular Arab nationalism, supporting the right wing fundamentalists.

I don't think this is an Islam issue. I think this is a right wing, fundamentalist issue, and that Evangelical Christians, Zionist Jews, and Wahhabi Muslims are all equally dangerous and destructive.
You know the 'Parti Islam' I mentionned earlier that wanted to segregate men and women on the bus and apply Sharia law? Shia Muslims.

Haven't you heard? There is only one Islam. It is a totalizing and violent political ideology and its goal is to convert or enslave the rest of the world and create one Muslim nation under the rule of Allah.

Islam is in its own category. I suggest you read up a bit more on the subject, ask Muslims what they think about Jews, women and gays directly and just open your eyes to the situation in some European cities.

No point denying the obvious.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

MadScientist wrote:
1 year ago
Then there are the Alwawite Muslims, the Shia Muslims (remember, Iran is a consequence if regime change wars and having a dictator forced on them by CIA coup, so that one is quite complex). In South East Asia, Malay Muslims are really quite peaceful, I wouldn't call them dangerous at all. Indonesia has had a female prime minister and the current PM is a metal head (there are other issues, but he's no fundamentalist.
What's the pont of even bringing it up when sunni Muslims constitute close to 90% of entire Muslim population in the world? If all Muslims were like Alwaites, Ahamadias, Sufis, Ismailis or Druzes we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But unfortunately they are not. They are only around 10% to 12% of entire Muslim population. You might try to argue that not all sunnis are wahhabist or salafist. I will respond by saying that the entirety of population doesn't need to be. Just enough in numbers to over take a nation, like what you are seeing in countries like Pakistan.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Hairblues » 1 year ago

Admin wrote:
1 year ago
Muslims are a threat no matter where they come from. And that comes from a guy whose best friend is Muslim. On an individual level, they can be just like the vast majority of us in the West: tolerant, for freedom, kind, reasonable, etc.

But collectively, once they get together in a mob so to speak, watch out. The vast majority of them are profoundly antisemitic, misogynistic, against gay people, want to cover their women and they are dead against abortion. And they reject the separation of Church / mosque and State.

You want as few of them as you can in our free secular societies. The US are right to limit immigration from those backwards countries. They've seen what's happening to us in Europe and it's understandable that they don't want to make the same mistake.
If someone discriminate against people for religious beliefs it’s generally considered racism in USA. That’s how I was taught. When the old people who survives concentration camps when I was a little girl used to come talk in my school, it was understood to they went through a form of racism. Yeah antisematism but it’s basically same shit morally and view point, has same outcome.
If it’s not the webster dictionary definition really doesn’t matter.
It’s generally understood xenophobia and racism are either synonymous or ‘kissing cousins’ they both have to do with hate and fear and feeling they are other, somehow less human.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by That Guy » 1 year ago

to be honest, it's impressive that even a subject like "Joe Rogan talks about baldness" can become a "fuck Trump" discussion

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
No I don''t exactly concede what you are suggesting. I will elucidate my differences in the following paragraphs.

I agree that Trump's travel ban AFTER he became president was probably more aimed at appeasing his base. However, when he initially proposed his travel ban, before he became president, it was genuinely out of security concern. If my memory serves me, candidate Trump passed his initial statement around the time of terrorist attacks in Paris and St. Bernadino. I remember him saying something along the lines of, "We should stop Muslims from coming in UNTIL we figure out what's going on and have a proper vetting process". Is this really a crazy position? I think once he became president he realized that these things are not as easy to implement as they can go against Americas national interest.

Also, I take issue with your claim that a large proportion of his supporters are bigots. It's not unreasonable if his base wants a proper vetting process in the light of all the terrorist attacks and wide spread problematic beliefs among Muslims(as shown by data) that are anathema to a free, democratic, secular society. Why should America take such a risk? Trumps base thinks that America doesn't own anyone anything and they will do what's in the interest of the country. What's wrong with this view? If Trumps base was really so bigoted then why aren't they clamoring about banning Hindus, Buddhists, Jains,etc? Why only Muslims? Do you ever stop and think about that? Have you met a Trump supporter? I lived in a very conservative part of the country dominated by Trump supporters. These "bigoted" Trump supporters have always embraced me with an open arm. Me, a brown, Indian, Hindu guy. I worked with them, went to college with them, dated them and even married into their family. Never felt an ounce of bigotry.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by MadScientist » 1 year ago

Trump supporters have nuance. They generally don’t mind Indians and East Asians, it’s Muslims, Blacks, Central and South Americans and Puerto Rican’s that Trump supporters generally hate. Even right wing hate groups have nuance. They don’t hate all non whites. Hitler teamed up with the Japanese despite being a white supremacist. There is a gross simplification going on here, though pj raised a really good point above that I would like to address. I’ll hold off until later because it deserves an in depth response and little bit of research/fact checking.

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