Making sense of the current political climate

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blackg
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Making sense of the current political climate

#23706

Post by blackg » 4 weeks ago

In the coverage I've seen of these anti-lockdown protests I have yet to see any of these law abiding citizens point a firearm at an elected state official.
The weapons carried by protester are usually slung over the shoulder with the barrel and muzzles pointed downwards.

In public displays of weaponry like this, the guns are usually not loaded anyways. A protester may be carrying a full magazine (in a bumbag/fanny pack) but these mags are never locked and loaded, so to speak.

@Afro_Vacancy, it doesn't help to use inflammatory language like this regading erroneous reports of guns pointed at legislators.

You can do better.
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Making sense of the current political climate

#23707

Post by yettee » 4 weeks ago

I don't know what to tell you. You posted
Rudiger wrote:
4 weeks ago
If the numbers go down and against Orange Man, then and only then do you accept the conventional opinion, as it is then correct.
Which is precisely the opposite of what Cillizza was saying. His point was that we should be wary and skeptical when the numbers go down, because it may not be accurate. As far as the poll that showed him up being the "gold standard", that's his view, not necessarily mine.
blackg wrote:
2 weeks ago
Conservativism is the new counterculture.
You aren't kidding. Here's one of the top advisors to conservatives Dick Cheney, GWB and John McCain:

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/steve ... 3526213613

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Making sense of the current political climate

#23747

Post by blackg » 2 weeks ago

yettee wrote:
4 weeks ago
You aren't kidding. Here's one of the top advisors to conservatives Dick Cheney, GWB and John McCain:

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/steve ... 3526213613
Thanks mate. I'll get around to reading this on my break today sometime.
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Making sense of the current political climate

#24225

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 3 days ago

JLBB wrote:
3 days ago
The funny part is people including you (who I typically assume knows better that to be reactionary) are acting as if its serious, yet Afro himself in the comment subsequent said he thought I did it to get banned, which is true.

And the before I said that the guy totally mischaracterised paragraphs and paragraphs of what I've said over the years and of recent, I don't care or think poorly if he's Jewish and I think the term kike is ridiculous but an insult was better than wasting my time on arguments that he doesn't give a shit about. Politically he's made up his mind in regards to narrative. The guy constantly complains about American leadership yet sympathized with Bernie who supports open borders and then acts upset when they don't have a centre-left alternative and end up with a guy like Trump running the country.

He said he felt bad for me in saying it, I felt bad for him in that he can't understand alternative perspectives for supporting Trump when he literally supported a candidate who advocates open borders on his website. I even said explicitly multiple times I would have supported Yang and yet despite years and years of my posts Afro reduces it to "you like Trump because of the memes". Add that to his support of Wolf Pack when Afro KNEW he was lying and yes I was genuinely angry because the facade of "rationality" he puts up went out the fucking window. If he's going to misconstrue years of political talk in such a basic, nonsensical way then yes I'd rather a quick ban and just insult the guy instead of arguing something he's unwilling to argue with intellectual honesty.

So it was not used in a friendly context, but the term "kike" was the least substantive part of the insult. I don't think he's a kike and I don't think anything of his Jewishness.

When reading your defences, I remember again why I thought a month ago better to be banned than argue with unthinking caricatures
You bring up those lines in Bernie's platform about open borders over and over and over again. You really seem to genuinely believe that it's an outstanding argument.

It's not.

It is clearly just a few lines in Bernie's platform. I've explained this to you before, but even if I hadn't it wouldn't matter as I'm sure you understood this on your own when you were 15 years old at the latest. Political platforms don't matter. What matters is what people do when they're in power. For every single campaigning politician one needs to project what they would do when they're in power. In the case of Bernie, he would not open the border to hundreds of millions of people. And I'm sure that you understand that.

However, in the case of Trump, we know what he does. He is destroying the country. We have 20% unemployment, 500pm curfews, decreased privacy rights, children in cages, disintegrating infrastructure, decreased life expectancy, increased police brutality, open discussion of cancelling the election, etc etc. Those are real things that are actually happening, they're not imaginary like Sanders letting in 100 million people.

When Trump is not actively destroying the country, he muses about stopping hurricanes with nuclear weapons, or curing coronavirus with bleach and hydroxychloroquine.

For people who stick to reality, there is no reason to support this man. But I admit that if you live in la-la land and you think that Sanders would open the borders to 100 million people, then Trump might be the lesser evil.

But I know where I live -- in the USA. I have to deal with reality.

Edited to add: I left out something important.

What is it that possesses you to defend Trump on the basis that Sanders would allow open borders? You know that this argument is BS.

I think it's that you're not affected by Trump destroying the country. You haven't dealt with the repercussions. So you can still indulge in partisanship.
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Making sense of the current political climate

#24226

Post by rclark » 3 days ago

For me I cannot stand the fact that Trump does not want mail in voting. That would actually be more fair and easier to track.

The problem is I hate both Presidential candidates.

Most elections are an easy choice.

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Making sense of the current political climate

#24232

Post by Rudiger » 2 days ago

I am seeing so many "lists" of things Trump is doing to destroy America, from twitter or a side-part of poorly written opinion pieces, I saw Afro's post with one of these "lists" of like 20 reasons, and I thought I'd pick through each point one by one.

I think it's become the norm that people can write these things out off the cuff, not knowing if they're absolutely true but most importantly- not caring, as long as they push the narrative, and for the most part they remain completely unaccountable. I won't speak for Afro but it seems like that's the kinda thing he would hate to be known for, just vaguely from seeing his posts on morality.

On re-reading this I particularly felt it was completely unreasonable to blame Trump on unemployment (because of a global pandemic, obviously) or curfews (because of race riots), and likely felt the same for vague things like infrastructure or increasing police brutality (unless there's a good response to these).

But the one that stands out to me of complete undeniable bias is blaming a president of 3 years for destroying the country because life expectancy has been going down.

Actually I googled "american life expectancy trump" just to get an understanding if Afro maybe read some article or something, and just got this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/3 ... ars-109397
https://www.thejournal.ie/us-life-expec ... 8-Jan2020/

I mean if you want to mock the Trump Administration for taking credit for something that takes such a large amount of time to fix, then that's one thing.

Anyway...
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 days ago
You bring up those lines in Bernie's platform about open borders over and over and over again. You really seem to genuinely believe that it's an outstanding argument.

It's not.

It is clearly just a few lines in Bernie's platform. I've explained this to you before, but even if I hadn't it wouldn't matter as I'm sure you understood this on your own when you were 15 years old at the latest. Political platforms don't matter. What matters is what people do when they're in power. For every single campaigning politician one needs to project what they would do when they're in power. In the case of Bernie, he would not open the border to hundreds of millions of people. And I'm sure that you understand that.

However, in the case of Trump, we know what he does. He is destroying the country. We have 20% unemployment, 500pm curfews, decreased privacy rights, children in cages, disintegrating infrastructure, decreased life expectancy, increased police brutality, open discussion of cancelling the election, etc etc. Those are real things that are actually happening, they're not imaginary like Sanders letting in 100 million people.

When Trump is not actively destroying the country, he muses about stopping hurricanes with nuclear weapons, or curing coronavirus with bleach and hydroxychloroquine.

For people who stick to reality, there is no reason to support this man. But I admit that if you live in la-la land and you think that Sanders would open the borders to 100 million people, then Trump might be the lesser evil.

But I know where I live -- in the USA. I have to deal with reality.

Edited to add: I left out something important.

What is it that possesses you to defend Trump on the basis that Sanders would allow open borders? You know that this argument is BS.

I think it's that you're not affected by Trump destroying the country. You haven't dealt with the repercussions. So you can still indulge in partisanship.
Your logic is that you'll vote for someone in confidence that they won't carry out what they've said? And you arrogantly tell this to JLBB as if this is obvious common sense.

OK so here's the things you wrote out with Trump and how we know what he does, and you wrote he is actively doing these things, as if it's intentional or what?

We have 20% unemployment- since a global pandemic where across all countries have a similar spike in unemployment, I mean this is so disingenuous it doesn't even need explaining, but seeing as you're unhappy about 20% unemployment I'm sure you were expressing your delight with Trump when it was at a record low 4%.

500pm curfews- as a result of violent riots exactly like the 5pm curfews in Ferguson in 2014. If there weren't 5pm curfews and young black men continued shooting each other in "protest" (not covered in the mainstream media by the way, or the killing of a cop) would you be complaining Trump isn't doing anything to protect these people?

decreased privacy rights- This is incredibly vague and could be argued strongly about the previous 2 Presidents, I have no problem looking in to it further if you give me some further details, but Obama lied repeatedly about what the NSA had access to, and Bush/Bush Administration lied blatantly about the intentions and permanency of the Patriot Act. From 2017 I wouldn't be surprised if it's completely true there's decreased privacy, but how did he influence that directly or what policies amped it up?

children in cages- not only has this been "happening" since the 90's, but it's not even happening at all. There is a detainment centre where people and children can be kept for I believe 8 hours before being processed to an actual holding unit (sorry but these aren't exactly 5 Star hotels, maybe Bernie could push for those on the tax dollar for people breaking the countries laws) but they do not resemble anything like the "cages" that children were being kept in from images on Facebook, which is widely known to be pictures from a protest against keeping children in cages (kinda ironic really). I'm certain you know this anyway.

disintegrating infrastructure- like privacy rights it's incredibly vague and I'd need to know more details (and I'd actually like to know more). I fail to see how a continually booming economy (as it was before Trump invented the coronavirus of course) would lead to a further disintegrating infrastructure, unless as with other points you're blaming Trump for things that happened before he was elected. I mean this is an incredibly broad spectrum of a functioning country to put as a "main point" 3 years after election.

decreased life expectancy- this is an issue across Europe and the Western World, in America the official turn of decreased life expectancy has been happening since 2014, modern medicine is practically max'd out as to how far it can take life expectancy, and there's been an obesity epidemic on the rise for decades. You cannot say with a straight face that a gigantic general social issue like life expectancy can reflect anything after 3 years, but here you are putting it in a list of reasons Trump is destroying the country.

increased police brutality- vague again and this would be hard to quantify, the number of deaths from police I believe has gone down since it's biggest year in 2015 (around 1100) but it's always around the 1,000 mark anyway so I don't think Trump has improved it, but as it's one of your reasons he's destroying America then the onus is on you. And deaths doesn't necessarily mean "brutality", they could be justified deaths, it could be someone bleeding out and then dies in custody.

open discussion of cancelling the election- I don't know much about this so I googled and vaguely remember Trump being reported to have said it, but after clicking 3 or 4 articles from the mainstream media of course I couldn't find a direct quote, just paragraphs of vague boogeyman theories on dictatorship and authoritarianism etc. So again I'm open to know more, but I will say after the absolute shambles and obvious corruption of the Iowa Caucuses I would be incredibly worried about the Dems organising mail-in elections.

stopping hurricanes with nuclear weapons- never proven, unnamed sources, I find it strange they wouldn't even name the White House senior administration official who responded basically saying they do not discuss private meetings. I'm not denying that Trump didn't float the idea or ask a question, there's very few people who would say Trump never says stupid things (including Conservatives) but this was an idea first mentioned in the 1950's, and not actually disregarded because it definitely won't work, but because of how incredibly hazardous it would be. The original article from Axios stated that Trump's first proposal didn't involve the term "nuke" or "nuclear". I know you're saying he "muses" about it I'm guessing meaning that you're saying he was just putting it out there, but you don't have any proof that he did just put it out there, did you think to check for the "memo's"? OK I don't expect everyone to check every bit of news, but do you ever double check further in to a negative article about Trump?

It actually doesn't matter to me whether he said this about hurricanes, because it was never seriously put forth as a policy or serious suggestion, which brings me on to the next point..

curing coronavirus with bleach and hydroxychloroquine- well with regards to "disinfectant" yep he twice asked a doctor about using disinfectant internally by light sources put in to the body, because there was a company actually researching this strongly and had some popular videos on youtube (that were removed immediately after the press conference, within about 6 hours). Trump's biggest mess up with this was saying he was being "sarcastic", when everyone clearly knows he wasn't and it was a blatant lie, and for me that was far worse than the initial mere suggestion, I mean you could have at least mentioned that and then we'd have one thing to agree on.

But show me when he said "bleach" as if you don't know that bleach is simply one of the many types of disinfectants, and the word he used was "disinfectant".

Your last point is like a parody of the typically closeted racist Liberal, now because JLBB doesn't live in your country, he doesn't understand, and you're disregarding his foreign opinions. This happened before on this forum and I can't remember if it was you but I don't think it was, but @Admin was promptly told as a Belgian he has no right or less of a right to have opinions about what's happening in an American's country. If a Mexican supported Trump would you tell them they wouldn't understand because they don't live there?

If JLBB agreed that Orange Man is Bad and with everything you wrote, I don't think you would say: "thanks for thinking you understand however you actually wouldn't know as you don't live here, so I can't accept your opinion in agreement as it lowers the value of my own opinion as an American citizen, sorry."

And you might say I'm exaggerating your words but this is absolutely belittling someone for not living in your country, and therefore only being able to indulge in their bias because they are a foreigner who doesn't know better: "But I know where I live -- in the USA. I have to deal with reality." "I think it's that you're not affected by Trump destroying the country. You haven't dealt with the repercussions. So you can still indulge in partisanship." You made reference to JLBB living in la-la land, don't pretend that this wasn't a geographical thing, or you can do that if you want, but regardless you still implied that because you live in the USA, you have to deal with "reality", people outside aren't affected (not at all true by the way) and don't have to deal with repercussions, therefore they can still indulge in bias.

But I've heard or seen this same argument so many times "You don't live here so you don't see what's really going on" and two points on this:

1. OK well Trump's support has practically remained the same for over 3 years now (and before anyone says it's "erratic", Clinton, Obama and Bush were closer to 20 point differentials in their first term at different points of it, Trump around 10% through from 38% overall approval to 48%, and almost always in the 41-45 range, of course because of strong Republican base but still) so your argument is based on the premise that every person living in America understands how he's destroying the country, and Australians would feel the exact same way if they lived there. So why is a Republican base of 90%+ still supporting him when they see their country being destroyed? Or why has the Hispanic and Black approval rating increased?

The only answer is to further belittle all Republican supporters for being racist, uneducated, or their own location etc. So why bother even making this about being an American citizen? It's nothing to do with understanding the country, it's you grasping at the next reason to disregard someone who disagrees with you.

2. Most important point of this whole post- if you really have major issues that you see as "destroying" America, that aren't known internationally, why are you listing off things that are well known anyway?

So if JLBB can't understand how the country is affected, if he doesn't know the repercussions, why don't you just tell us? And it really better be good, because this was the reason you used to say he can't have an opinion because he's just indulging in partisanship and doesn't live in reality.

To me it again seems disingenuous, "Here's a bunch of reasons Trump is destroying America. ... but you wouldn't understand because of the real repercussions of Trump's America. (which I won't write unless being prompted to do so)".
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Making sense of the current political climate

#24233

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 2 days ago

Rudiger wrote:
2 days ago
I am seeing so many "lists" of things Trump is doing to destroy America, from twitter or a side-part of poorly written opinion pieces, I saw Afro's post with one of these "lists" of like 20 reasons, and I thought I'd pick through each point one by one.

I think it's become the norm that people can write these things out off the cuff, not knowing if they're absolutely true but most importantly- not caring, as long as they push the narrative, and for the most part they remain completely unaccountable. I won't speak for Afro but it seems like that's the kinda thing he would hate to be known for, just vaguely from seeing his posts on morality.

On re-reading this I particularly felt it was completely unreasonable to blame Trump on unemployment (because of a global pandemic, obviously) or curfews (because of race riots), and likely felt the same for vague things like infrastructure or increasing police brutality (unless there's a good response to these).

But the one that stands out to me of complete undeniable bias is blaming a president of 3 years for destroying the country because life expectancy has been going down.

Actually I googled "american life expectancy trump" just to get an understanding if Afro maybe read some article or something, and just got this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/3 ... ars-109397
https://www.thejournal.ie/us-life-expec ... 8-Jan2020/

I mean if you want to mock the Trump Administration for taking credit for something that takes such a large amount of time to fix, then that's one thing.

Anyway...



Your logic is that you'll vote for someone in confidence that they won't carry out what they've said? And you arrogantly tell this to JLBB as if this is obvious common sense.

OK so here's the things you wrote out with Trump and how we know what he does, and you wrote he is actively doing these things, as if it's intentional or what?

We have 20% unemployment- since a global pandemic where across all countries have a similar spike in unemployment, I mean this is so disingenuous it doesn't even need explaining, but seeing as you're unhappy about 20% unemployment I'm sure you were expressing your delight with Trump when it was at a record low 4%.

500pm curfews- as a result of violent riots exactly like the 5pm curfews in Ferguson in 2014. If there weren't 5pm curfews and young black men continued shooting each other in "protest" (not covered in the mainstream media by the way, or the killing of a cop) would you be complaining Trump isn't doing anything to protect these people?

decreased privacy rights- This is incredibly vague and could be argued strongly about the previous 2 Presidents, I have no problem looking in to it further if you give me some further details, but Obama lied repeatedly about what the NSA had access to, and Bush/Bush Administration lied blatantly about the intentions and permanency of the Patriot Act. From 2017 I wouldn't be surprised if it's completely true there's decreased privacy, but how did he influence that directly or what policies amped it up?

children in cages- not only has this been "happening" since the 90's, but it's not even happening at all. There is a detainment centre where people and children can be kept for I believe 8 hours before being processed to an actual holding unit (sorry but these aren't exactly 5 Star hotels, maybe Bernie could push for those on the tax dollar for people breaking the countries laws) but they do not resemble anything like the "cages" that children were being kept in from images on Facebook, which is widely known to be pictures from a protest against keeping children in cages (kinda ironic really). I'm certain you know this anyway.

disintegrating infrastructure- like privacy rights it's incredibly vague and I'd need to know more details (and I'd actually like to know more). I fail to see how a continually booming economy (as it was before Trump invented the coronavirus of course) would lead to a further disintegrating infrastructure, unless as with other points you're blaming Trump for things that happened before he was elected. I mean this is an incredibly broad spectrum of a functioning country to put as a "main point" 3 years after election.

decreased life expectancy- this is an issue across Europe and the Western World, in America the official turn of decreased life expectancy has been happening since 2014, modern medicine is practically max'd out as to how far it can take life expectancy, and there's been an obesity epidemic on the rise for decades. You cannot say with a straight face that a gigantic general social issue like life expectancy can reflect anything after 3 years, but here you are putting it in a list of reasons Trump is destroying the country.

increased police brutality- vague again and this would be hard to quantify, the number of deaths from police I believe has gone down since it's biggest year in 2015 (around 1100) but it's always around the 1,000 mark anyway so I don't think Trump has improved it, but as it's one of your reasons he's destroying America then the onus is on you. And deaths doesn't necessarily mean "brutality", they could be justified deaths, it could be someone bleeding out and then dies in custody.

open discussion of cancelling the election- I don't know much about this so I googled and vaguely remember Trump being reported to have said it, but after clicking 3 or 4 articles from the mainstream media of course I couldn't find a direct quote, just paragraphs of vague boogeyman theories on dictatorship and authoritarianism etc. So again I'm open to know more, but I will say after the absolute shambles and obvious corruption of the Iowa Caucuses I would be incredibly worried about the Dems organising mail-in elections.

stopping hurricanes with nuclear weapons- never proven, unnamed sources, I find it strange they wouldn't even name the White House senior administration official who responded basically saying they do not discuss private meetings. I'm not denying that Trump didn't float the idea or ask a question, there's very few people who would say Trump never says stupid things (including Conservatives) but this was an idea first mentioned in the 1950's, and not actually disregarded because it definitely won't work, but because of how incredibly hazardous it would be. The original article from Axios stated that Trump's first proposal didn't involve the term "nuke" or "nuclear". I know you're saying he "muses" about it I'm guessing meaning that you're saying he was just putting it out there, but you don't have any proof that he did just put it out there, did you think to check for the "memo's"? OK I don't expect everyone to check every bit of news, but do you ever double check further in to a negative article about Trump?

It actually doesn't matter to me whether he said this about hurricanes, because it was never seriously put forth as a policy or serious suggestion, which brings me on to the next point..

curing coronavirus with bleach and hydroxychloroquine- well with regards to "disinfectant" yep he twice asked a doctor about using disinfectant internally by light sources put in to the body, because there was a company actually researching this strongly and had some popular videos on youtube (that were removed immediately after the press conference, within about 6 hours). Trump's biggest mess up with this was saying he was being "sarcastic", when everyone clearly knows he wasn't and it was a blatant lie, and for me that was far worse than the initial mere suggestion, I mean you could have at least mentioned that and then we'd have one thing to agree on.

But show me when he said "bleach" as if you don't know that bleach is simply one of the many types of disinfectants, and the word he used was "disinfectant".

Your last point is like a parody of the typically closeted racist Liberal, now because JLBB doesn't live in your country, he doesn't understand, and you're disregarding his foreign opinions. This happened before on this forum and I can't remember if it was you but I don't think it was, but @admin was promptly told as a Belgian he has no right or less of a right to have opinions about what's happening in an American's country. If a Mexican supported Trump would you tell them they wouldn't understand because they don't live there?

If JLBB agreed that Orange Man is Bad and with everything you wrote, I don't think you would say: "thanks for thinking you understand however you actually wouldn't know as you don't live here, so I can't accept your opinion in agreement as it lowers the value of my own opinion as an American citizen, sorry."

And you might say I'm exaggerating your words but this is absolutely belittling someone for not living in your country, and therefore only being able to indulge in their bias because they are a foreigner who doesn't know better: "But I know where I live -- in the USA. I have to deal with reality." "I think it's that you're not affected by Trump destroying the country. You haven't dealt with the repercussions. So you can still indulge in partisanship." You made reference to JLBB living in la-la land, don't pretend that this wasn't a geographical thing, or you can do that if you want, but regardless you still implied that because you live in the USA, you have to deal with "reality", people outside aren't affected (not at all true by the way) and don't have to deal with repercussions, therefore they can still indulge in bias.

But I've heard or seen this same argument so many times "You don't live here so you don't see what's really going on" and two points on this:

1. OK well Trump's support has practically remained the same for over 3 years now (and before anyone says it's "erratic", Clinton, Obama and Bush were closer to 20 point differentials in their first term at different points of it, Trump around 10% through from 38% overall approval to 48%, and almost always in the 41-45 range, of course because of strong Republican base but still) so your argument is based on the premise that every person living in America understands how he's destroying the country, and Australians would feel the exact same way if they lived there. So why is a Republican base of 90%+ still supporting him when they see their country being destroyed? Or why has the Hispanic and Black approval rating increased?

The only answer is to further belittle all Republican supporters for being racist, uneducated, or their own location etc. So why bother even making this about being an American citizen? It's nothing to do with understanding the country, it's you grasping at the next reason to disregard someone who disagrees with you.

2. Most important point of this whole post- if you really have major issues that you see as "destroying" America, that aren't known internationally, why are you listing off things that are well known anyway?

So if JLBB can't understand how the country is affected, if he doesn't know the repercussions, why don't you just tell us? And it really better be good, because this was the reason you used to say he can't have an opinion because he's just indulging in partisanship and doesn't live in reality.

To me it again seems disingenuous, "Here's a bunch of reasons Trump is destroying America. ... but you wouldn't understand because of the real repercussions of Trump's America. (which I won't write unless being prompted to do so)".
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Making sense of the current political climate

#24234

Post by Rudiger » 2 days ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
2 days ago
TLDR.
I think this is meant to be a "I know- I'll shame him for walls of text and act above it in that way" response, but as you've written countless times I am apparently on Ignore/Foe, so why did you even reply? It would have been the perfect opportunity to show you actually can't see my posts while also not having to be accountable for your list.
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Making sense of the current political climate

#24235

Post by Arjen » 2 days ago

Rudiger wrote:
2 days ago
I am seeing so many "lists" of things Trump is doing to destroy America, from twitter or a side-part of poorly written opinion pieces, I saw Afro's post with one of these "lists" of like 20 reasons, and I thought I'd pick through each point one by one.

I think it's become the norm that people can write these things out off the cuff, not knowing if they're absolutely true but most importantly- not caring, as long as they push the narrative, and for the most part they remain completely unaccountable. I won't speak for Afro but it seems like that's the kinda thing he would hate to be known for, just vaguely from seeing his posts on morality.

On re-reading this I particularly felt it was completely unreasonable to blame Trump on unemployment (because of a global pandemic, obviously) or curfews (because of race riots), and likely felt the same for vague things like infrastructure or increasing police brutality (unless there's a good response to these).

But the one that stands out to me of complete undeniable bias is blaming a president of 3 years for destroying the country because life expectancy has been going down.

Actually I googled "american life expectancy trump" just to get an understanding if Afro maybe read some article or something, and just got this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/3 ... ars-109397
https://www.thejournal.ie/us-life-expec ... 8-Jan2020/

I mean if you want to mock the Trump Administration for taking credit for something that takes such a large amount of time to fix, then that's one thing.

Anyway...



Your logic is that you'll vote for someone in confidence that they won't carry out what they've said? And you arrogantly tell this to JLBB as if this is obvious common sense.

OK so here's the things you wrote out with Trump and how we know what he does, and you wrote he is actively doing these things, as if it's intentional or what?

We have 20% unemployment- since a global pandemic where across all countries have a similar spike in unemployment, I mean this is so disingenuous it doesn't even need explaining, but seeing as you're unhappy about 20% unemployment I'm sure you were expressing your delight with Trump when it was at a record low 4%.

500pm curfews- as a result of violent riots exactly like the 5pm curfews in Ferguson in 2014. If there weren't 5pm curfews and young black men continued shooting each other in "protest" (not covered in the mainstream media by the way, or the killing of a cop) would you be complaining Trump isn't doing anything to protect these people?

decreased privacy rights- This is incredibly vague and could be argued strongly about the previous 2 Presidents, I have no problem looking in to it further if you give me some further details, but Obama lied repeatedly about what the NSA had access to, and Bush/Bush Administration lied blatantly about the intentions and permanency of the Patriot Act. From 2017 I wouldn't be surprised if it's completely true there's decreased privacy, but how did he influence that directly or what policies amped it up?

children in cages- not only has this been "happening" since the 90's, but it's not even happening at all. There is a detainment centre where people and children can be kept for I believe 8 hours before being processed to an actual holding unit (sorry but these aren't exactly 5 Star hotels, maybe Bernie could push for those on the tax dollar for people breaking the countries laws) but they do not resemble anything like the "cages" that children were being kept in from images on Facebook, which is widely known to be pictures from a protest against keeping children in cages (kinda ironic really). I'm certain you know this anyway.

disintegrating infrastructure- like privacy rights it's incredibly vague and I'd need to know more details (and I'd actually like to know more). I fail to see how a continually booming economy (as it was before Trump invented the coronavirus of course) would lead to a further disintegrating infrastructure, unless as with other points you're blaming Trump for things that happened before he was elected. I mean this is an incredibly broad spectrum of a functioning country to put as a "main point" 3 years after election.

decreased life expectancy- this is an issue across Europe and the Western World, in America the official turn of decreased life expectancy has been happening since 2014, modern medicine is practically max'd out as to how far it can take life expectancy, and there's been an obesity epidemic on the rise for decades. You cannot say with a straight face that a gigantic general social issue like life expectancy can reflect anything after 3 years, but here you are putting it in a list of reasons Trump is destroying the country.

increased police brutality- vague again and this would be hard to quantify, the number of deaths from police I believe has gone down since it's biggest year in 2015 (around 1100) but it's always around the 1,000 mark anyway so I don't think Trump has improved it, but as it's one of your reasons he's destroying America then the onus is on you. And deaths doesn't necessarily mean "brutality", they could be justified deaths, it could be someone bleeding out and then dies in custody.

open discussion of cancelling the election- I don't know much about this so I googled and vaguely remember Trump being reported to have said it, but after clicking 3 or 4 articles from the mainstream media of course I couldn't find a direct quote, just paragraphs of vague boogeyman theories on dictatorship and authoritarianism etc. So again I'm open to know more, but I will say after the absolute shambles and obvious corruption of the Iowa Caucuses I would be incredibly worried about the Dems organising mail-in elections.

stopping hurricanes with nuclear weapons- never proven, unnamed sources, I find it strange they wouldn't even name the White House senior administration official who responded basically saying they do not discuss private meetings. I'm not denying that Trump didn't float the idea or ask a question, there's very few people who would say Trump never says stupid things (including Conservatives) but this was an idea first mentioned in the 1950's, and not actually disregarded because it definitely won't work, but because of how incredibly hazardous it would be. The original article from Axios stated that Trump's first proposal didn't involve the term "nuke" or "nuclear". I know you're saying he "muses" about it I'm guessing meaning that you're saying he was just putting it out there, but you don't have any proof that he did just put it out there, did you think to check for the "memo's"? OK I don't expect everyone to check every bit of news, but do you ever double check further in to a negative article about Trump?

It actually doesn't matter to me whether he said this about hurricanes, because it was never seriously put forth as a policy or serious suggestion, which brings me on to the next point..

curing coronavirus with bleach and hydroxychloroquine- well with regards to "disinfectant" yep he twice asked a doctor about using disinfectant internally by light sources put in to the body, because there was a company actually researching this strongly and had some popular videos on youtube (that were removed immediately after the press conference, within about 6 hours). Trump's biggest mess up with this was saying he was being "sarcastic", when everyone clearly knows he wasn't and it was a blatant lie, and for me that was far worse than the initial mere suggestion, I mean you could have at least mentioned that and then we'd have one thing to agree on.

But show me when he said "bleach" as if you don't know that bleach is simply one of the many types of disinfectants, and the word he used was "disinfectant".

Your last point is like a parody of the typically closeted racist Liberal, now because JLBB doesn't live in your country, he doesn't understand, and you're disregarding his foreign opinions. This happened before on this forum and I can't remember if it was you but I don't think it was, but @Admin was promptly told as a Belgian he has no right or less of a right to have opinions about what's happening in an American's country. If a Mexican supported Trump would you tell them they wouldn't understand because they don't live there?

If JLBB agreed that Orange Man is Bad and with everything you wrote, I don't think you would say: "thanks for thinking you understand however you actually wouldn't know as you don't live here, so I can't accept your opinion in agreement as it lowers the value of my own opinion as an American citizen, sorry."

And you might say I'm exaggerating your words but this is absolutely belittling someone for not living in your country, and therefore only being able to indulge in their bias because they are a foreigner who doesn't know better: "But I know where I live -- in the USA. I have to deal with reality." "I think it's that you're not affected by Trump destroying the country. You haven't dealt with the repercussions. So you can still indulge in partisanship." You made reference to JLBB living in la-la land, don't pretend that this wasn't a geographical thing, or you can do that if you want, but regardless you still implied that because you live in the USA, you have to deal with "reality", people outside aren't affected (not at all true by the way) and don't have to deal with repercussions, therefore they can still indulge in bias.

But I've heard or seen this same argument so many times "You don't live here so you don't see what's really going on" and two points on this:

1. OK well Trump's support has practically remained the same for over 3 years now (and before anyone says it's "erratic", Clinton, Obama and Bush were closer to 20 point differentials in their first term at different points of it, Trump around 10% through from 38% overall approval to 48%, and almost always in the 41-45 range, of course because of strong Republican base but still) so your argument is based on the premise that every person living in America understands how he's destroying the country, and Australians would feel the exact same way if they lived there. So why is a Republican base of 90%+ still supporting him when they see their country being destroyed? Or why has the Hispanic and Black approval rating increased?

The only answer is to further belittle all Republican supporters for being racist, uneducated, or their own location etc. So why bother even making this about being an American citizen? It's nothing to do with understanding the country, it's you grasping at the next reason to disregard someone who disagrees with you.

2. Most important point of this whole post- if you really have major issues that you see as "destroying" America, that aren't known internationally, why are you listing off things that are well known anyway?

So if JLBB can't understand how the country is affected, if he doesn't know the repercussions, why don't you just tell us? And it really better be good, because this was the reason you used to say he can't have an opinion because he's just indulging in partisanship and doesn't live in reality.

To me it again seems disingenuous, "Here's a bunch of reasons Trump is destroying America. ... but you wouldn't understand because of the real repercussions of Trump's America. (which I won't write unless being prompted to do so)".
Haha, list of 20 things, are you making fun of my post/suggestion or just a funny coincidence? Do you have hairy thighs by the way?

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Making sense of the current political climate

#24236

Post by rclark » 2 days ago

Trump used to publish false reports about President Obama's place of birth, and this was
after Obama was President. Trump was trying to "test the waters" in 2011.

Obama became President in 2008. So, for him not to be a United States citizen is just
outright crazy.

All of Trump's friends at the time, including Barbara Walters, said he was crazy.

Does that qualify him to be "bat shit crazy", I don't know. But it was a strange thing
to say.

Before Trump did that, I thought he was an alright guy, and I would have voted for him.

I think people who read about him think he is a great person.

All he has really done is try to get rid of universal health care for Americans (the Affordable Care Act/
Obama Care).

He hasn't done anything.

I used to think he was a cool guy. When I purchased an audio video from him, which he
was on the cover on to sell it (but he only said two sentences, and he didn't even author it) about how to
excel in your career, it was written by graduate students in their twenties, who never
held jobs.

Actually, I don't believe life expectancy has increased for the United States. Canadadians
live longer, and it could be because they have universal health care.

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Making sense of the current political climate

#24237

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 2 days ago

Rudiger wrote:
2 days ago
I think this is meant to be a "I know- I'll shame him for walls of text and act above it in that way" response, but as you've written countless times I am apparently on Ignore/Foe, so why did you even reply? It would have been the perfect opportunity to show you actually can't see my posts while also not having to be accountable for your list.
You're someone who is obsessed with what's normal, and with appearances in general.

Well, is it normal that you spent several hours writing several thousand words of completely uninformed, hateful garbage?

And yes, I did open and skim your post out of curiosity. I wanted to give you a chance. To convince me that you're more than not the hateful, uninformed, revolting piece of shit you come off as. I wanted to see if you would have enough dignity to acknowledge that Trump is a catastrophic failure in at least some respects, to show that you have the ability to grow and learn and be a better person.

I want to believe in you.

I see some of your strengths. You're intelligent. You have a lot of energy.

But you keep disappointing me.

You almost certainly disagreed with each point in spite of the fact that you are not qualified to do so. It is long past the point that you should have written that you were wrong about Trump. It is ok, good, and in fact dignified to acknowledge error.

And here, in this latest post, you go on with a completely irrelevant point about being accountable to my list. Really -- accountability to my list? -- is that a moral value? I guess it is to you. You care more about a vacuous issue like that than about genuine human dignity. You dismiss the issue of children in cages. You don't care about that. It doesn't disgust you. But being accountable to one's list, that is so important.

Yeah -- true virtue, true good, the forms behind the shadows on Plato's wall -- all of that is to be found in being "accountable to one's lists." I honestly have no idea how your warped mind even came up with that as some priority virtue.

It's like @Admin said to you a while back, you think that finding inconsistencies in others is a great "gotcha!" or something. It's not.

You want to know something interesting? Every time I take one or two weeks off, the first thing i see when I get back is you fighting with 2,3, or 4 individuals. I'm going to take a break now. I'm confident that when I come back, be it in two days, two weeks, or two months, the first thing that I'll see is a fight involving you.

It's perhaps because you have nothing else to offer. You have written, by an overwhelming margin, the most words of anybody on this forum and yet you are nowhere near among the most insightful. Your boring attempts at threads go nowhere, which is why you try to take over other people's threads. A lot of people fear you, a few people claim to like you, but you are only ever successful at driving discussion and getting attention when you fight with people. It's too bad you can't recognize that as a failing and use it as a motivation to grow.

When you're not fighting, you're not generating discussion.

But I'll do something differently than @Admin here. In his last post to you, he said that he would let you have the last word. Well, I'm going to acknowledge reality. I'm not "letting you" have the last word, since that would imply that I'm able to fight for it. I'm not. You're going to claim the last word come hell or high water. Because in the thousands of fights that you've been in, you have claimed the last word every single time.

Let's be honest: I am surrendering the last word.
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Making sense of the current political climate

#24238

Post by Arjen » 2 days ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
2 days ago
You're someone who is obsessed with what's normal, and with appearances in general.

Well, is it normal that you spent several hours writing several thousand words of completely uninformed, hateful garbage?

And yes, I did open and skim your post out of curiosity. I wanted to give you a chance. To convince me that you're more than not the hateful, uninformed, revolting piece of shit you come off as. I wanted to see if you would have enough dignity to acknowledge that Trump is a catastrophic failure in at least some respects, to show that you have the ability to grow and learn and be a better person.

I want to believe in you.

I see some of your strengths. You're intelligent. You have a lot of energy.

But you keep disappointing me.

You almost certainly disagreed with each point in spite of the fact that you are not qualified to do so. It is long past the point that you should have written that you were wrong about Trump. It is ok, good, and in fact dignified to acknowledge error.

And here, in this latest post, you go on with a completely irrelevant point about being accountable to my list. Really -- accountability to my list? -- is that a moral value? I guess it is to you. You care more about a vacuous issue like that than about genuine human dignity. You dismiss the issue of children in cages. You don't care about that. It doesn't disgust you. But being accountable to one's list, that is so important.

Yeah -- true virtue, true good, the forms behind the shadows on Plato's wall -- all of that is to be found in being "accountable to one's lists." I honestly have no idea how your warped mind even came up with that as some priority virtue.

It's like @Admin said to you a while back, you think that finding inconsistencies in others is a great "gotcha!" or something. It's not.

You want to know something interesting? Every time I take one or two weeks off, the first thing i see when I get back is you fighting with 2,3, or 4 individuals. I'm going to take a break now. I'm confident that when I come back, be it in two days, two weeks, or two months, the first thing that I'll see is a fight involving you.

It's perhaps because you have nothing else to offer. You have written, by an overwhelming margin, the most words of anybody on this forum and yet you are nowhere near among the most insightful. Your boring attempts at threads go nowhere, which is why you try to take over other people's threads. A lot of people fear you, a few people claim to like you, but you are only ever successful at driving discussion and getting attention when you fight with people. It's too bad you can't recognize that as a failing and use it as a motivation to grow.

When you're not fighting, you're not generating discussion.

But I'll do something differently than @Admin here. In his last post to you, he said that he would let you have the last word. Well, I'm going to acknowledge reality. I'm not "letting you" have the last word, since that would imply that I'm able to fight for it. I'm not. You're going to claim the last word come hell or high water. Because in the thousands of fights that you've been in, you have claimed the last word every single time.

Let's be honest: I am surrendering the last word.
good point. most feared user: rudiger. it‘s funny, as I think he‘s actually not even tall, not at all actually, lol.

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#24239

Post by Rudiger » 2 days ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
2 days ago
You're someone who is obsessed with what's normal, and with appearances in general.

Well, is it normal that you spent several hours writing several thousand words of completely uninformed, hateful garbage?

And yes, I did open and skim your post out of curiosity. I wanted to give you a chance. To convince me that you're more than not the hateful, uninformed, revolting piece of shit you come off as. I wanted to see if you would have enough dignity to acknowledge that Trump is a catastrophic failure in at least some respects, to show that you have the ability to grow and learn and be a better person.

I want to believe in you.

I see some of your strengths. You're intelligent. You have a lot of energy.

But you keep disappointing me.

You almost certainly disagreed with each point in spite of the fact that you are not qualified to do so. It is long past the point that you should have written that you were wrong about Trump. It is ok, good, and in fact dignified to acknowledge error.

And here, in this latest post, you go on with a completely irrelevant point about being accountable to my list. Really -- accountability to my list? -- is that a moral value? I guess it is to you. You care more about a vacuous issue like that than about genuine human dignity. You dismiss the issue of children in cages. You don't care about that. It doesn't disgust you. But being accountable to one's list, that is so important.

Yeah -- true virtue, true good, the forms behind the shadows on Plato's wall -- all of that is to be found in being "accountable to one's lists." I honestly have no idea how your warped mind even came up with that as some priority virtue.

It's like @Admin said to you a while back, you think that finding inconsistencies in others is a great "gotcha!" or something. It's not.

You want to know something interesting? Every time I take one or two weeks off, the first thing i see when I get back is you fighting with 2,3, or 4 individuals. I'm going to take a break now. I'm confident that when I come back, be it in two days, two weeks, or two months, the first thing that I'll see is a fight involving you.

It's perhaps because you have nothing else to offer. You have written, by an overwhelming margin, the most words of anybody on this forum and yet you are nowhere near among the most insightful. Your boring attempts at threads go nowhere, which is why you try to take over other people's threads. A lot of people fear you, a few people claim to like you, but you are only ever successful at driving discussion and getting attention when you fight with people. It's too bad you can't recognize that as a failing and use it as a motivation to grow.

When you're not fighting, you're not generating discussion.

But I'll do something differently than @Admin here. In his last post to you, he said that he would let you have the last word. Well, I'm going to acknowledge reality. I'm not "letting you" have the last word, since that would imply that I'm able to fight for it. I'm not. You're going to claim the last word come hell or high water. Because in the thousands of fights that you've been in, you have claimed the last word every single time.

Let's be honest: I am surrendering the last word.
Is this the principle you stick by of encouraging others at all times?

I have no idea what's prompted you to go completely insane, hateful and personal, looking at what's written in my last few posts. You're saying it's because you wanted to give me a chance about some of Trump's failure, well I did acknowledge some of Trump's negatives in my post (claiming he was sarcastic with regards to disinfectant, how he does indeed say stupid off-the-cuff things) and other than that, a few times I asked you, and told you I'd like to know, some of the reasons you put in that list. I didn't say I don't care about children in cages, I said that firstly, this wasn't an effect of Trump destroying your country when it's been in place since the 90's, and secondly there's no "cages" if you're referring to those mis-reported Facebook protest images.

"I wanted to see if you would have enough dignity to acknowledge that Trump is a catastrophic failure in at least some respects, to show that you have the ability to grow and learn and be a better person."

So you are literally saying "If you don't say Trump is a catastrophic failure in ways, I'm going to belittle you with TLDR, then write an incredibly personal post for absolutely no reason".

You keep writing about the "last word" I've given that way lots of times, like 2 days ago with Nameless, Rclark like a week ago, actually I'd say it happens like 50/50. But you wrote that to look/feel clever in pre-empting it "If I tell him he's desperate for the last word, whatever he replies with he's already "lost"

Because we've debated many times and you are always about "winning" or "losing", well I don't care, if I'm wrong about Trump then reply to the first post instead of focusing on me directly. It's such an obvious diversion.

You're again trying to shame me about writing so much, how many other forums do you go on? With as many posts as here/HairLossTalk?

Well congratulations you've now taken it completely off topic, such as your intention. You'd rather write a list about Trump in an echo chamber, be unaccountable for it, and if questioned on the points then you can literally tell people unless they agree with the "catastrophe", they are pieces of shit and can't accept error or fault.
Look, fat...

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Making sense of the current political climate

#24246

Post by nameless » 2 days ago

Rudiger suX. I have him on "Foe" so I don't see his posts.

Not seeing his posts makes the site a more pleasant experience.

He's just a creepy jackass.

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Making sense of the current political climate

#24249

Post by nameless » 2 days ago

I've heard conservatives say that liberals display too much hate for conservatives.

But conservatives are spreading the hate on pretty thick as well.

Below is a video of conservative senator Martha McSally calling CNNs Manu Raju a liberal hack as she refuses to answer a reasonable question from the CNN journalist. If Martha McSally had politely told the reporter that he was biased or too liberal that would be one thing. But that's not what she did. The degree of contempt and hatred that she put into her statement takes over the entire situation. You can feel the weight of her hatred for Manu Raju and all left wing people in her statement. There is no ambiguity about it - Martha McSally hates left-wing people and she communicates that to them via this video. Check it out below:


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