Making sense of the current political climate

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Admin » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:06 am

pjhair wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:55 am
I agree. I wanted to post about it yesterday but I wanted to find a study, known as Devner study(if my memory serves me), whose finding supports what I am about to say. The study shows how people who only interact with people they agree with and don't hear opposing view points tend to get more and more extreme over time. So @MadScientist don't leave. For yours and ours sake. I sometime worry about falling into the same trap. In fact, I believe if SJW's start to hang out with conservative more, many of them will abandon many of the extreme positions they hold. Humans have strong tribal instincts hence we should constantly logically and dispassionately evaluate our positions so as to not start the downward slide to irrational positions fueled by absence of opposing views. Hence I think you, HairBlues and Afro_Vacancy play a very important role of presenting the other side.

Also, please ignore if I came across aggressive. I assure you I mean no disrespect to you. I tend to get very passionate in these discussions. That is something I need to work on.
Every time I make my views known to a leftist like recently with the girl I knew who worked at the BBC, it's like they get PTSD from reading that anyone could even think that. It's the same with my Muslim conspirationist cousin, if I didn't share my views with him, he'd never have heard of them. And I think it's a good thing that he at least knows that those views exist and that as bad his worldview has become, at least he keeps talking to me, un like that girl who works at the BBC. She deleted me after saying my ignorance was embarrassing. I just said that the photo of the kid being in a cage that was being shared on every liberal outlet was taken at a protest for migrant rights and that the policy (not putting children together with potential criminals and thus separating them from their parents) was already in place during Obama.

Facts. But it didn't matter, to her I was a monster. It was the same girl I saw protesting to demand equal pay for the men and women at the BBC. At the time, I so wanted to write a comment along the lines: "Well, why don't you tell all your female colleagues to set a meeting with their supervisor to ask for more money then? You could collectively close the gap in no time!" But those people just won't listen to reason, they want to get upset and virtue-signal about virtually non-existent problems. It gives them something to do, protesting, getting together with the other people of their echochamber and just be like:

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:24 am

Admin wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 am
For example, yesterday when Rudiger told me that my opinion about Muslims all being ready to fight to subjugate the West at the drop of a hat was a bit extreme, it made me think, and I'm probably going to nuance my thinking soon.
Honestly, your opinion is reasonable. I don't want to say that 100% of Muslims are extreme but the number is high enough so wherever they come to power they either exterminate the minorities or subjugate them. It's not a matter of opinion. It's supported by what we see in Muslim countries, their history and data regarding their beliefs. Having said that, there is still hope. There are good Muslims and Imam who are trying to change things. They are a tiny minority but they are there. If you have time, watch the following interviews Fred. The interviewees are Imam Tawhidi and muslim scholar Tarek Fateh. They are trying to change things at a great risk to their and their families lives. There are others like them. I have great admiration for these two.




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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Admin » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:41 am

pjhair wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:24 am
Honestly, your opinion is reasonable. I don't want to say that 100% of Muslims are extreme but the number is high enough so wherever they come to power they either exterminate the minorities or subjugate them. It's not a matter of opinion. It's supported by what we see in Muslim countries, their history and data regarding their beliefs. Having said that, there is still hope. There are good Muslims and Imam who are trying to change things. They are a tiny minority but they are there. If you have time, watch the following interviews Fred. The interviewees are Imam Tawhidi and muslim scholar Tarek Fateh. They are trying to change things at a great risk to their and their families lives. There are others like them. I have great admiration for these two.



Unfortunately (or rather fortunately) I saw this debate on Gad Saad's channel:



What I took away from it is that Imam Tawhidi is mostly a narcissist (yes this again), he says he wants to change things but again, when you have someone who knows his stuff like that apostate in this video digging a little deeper, you realize it's BS, just a facade. The guy has his little following and it's not like he's taking a lot of risks with his ideas, he's still an ideologically brainwashed Muslim at the core as evidenced by this debate. At a point he loses it and just can't think rationally, so he resorts to diversion and name-calling. To me he's evidently practicing taqiya.

Other than that, after thinking about it, I don't think I'm wrong about every Muslim being ready to partake in the fight for the worldwide caliphate if shit hits the fan at a point in the West, maybe not all of them because you have to take into account the people who are simply temperamentally unable to fight, but the vast majority for sure. I don't believe there is any hope of them ever modulating their toxic worldview. The chances are very, very slim, they're stuck. The brainwashing from childhood was just too strong and too efficient.

I'll soon listen to Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief to get a deeper sense of why people cling to their belief like it's a matter of life or death, even if it destroys their lives and the lives of others right in front of their eyes. I think Muslim people are the Cains of this world, they see themselves as the losers as a whole and they can't take it, it's some form of collective narcissism where they block out all the negative about themselves and their religion and live in this fantasy where they're still the best kind of people in this world despite reality constantly showing otherwise. So to the outside world (well non-leftist people), they look insane and pathetic.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:47 pm

Hairblues wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:51 pm
I sound like a ranting libtard???

Okay guys was nice catching up with you

Adios :)

I’m not mad but I’m not really into things like this anymore and genuinely wish you all the best.

Take care
Hairblues please don't leave. We need you on this forum, I need you on this forum.

I've enjoyed reading this debate about immigration and I have very little to contribute as the more articulate members (that includes you) have adequately expressedy my concerns from both sides of the debate.

You're a valuable member and this forum will be poorer without you.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by blackg » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:00 pm

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:18 pm
We need not be angry at each other in here, as there are no actual policymakers here. We're just private citizens with incomplete knowledge of all of the facts and zero actual political power.

I used to be angry about the world going to shit. On some level I still am, but I can't afford to be really, as there's nothing that I can do to stop it if I'm right.

I do think that everyone here wants a better overall outcome for the general population.
Your level headedness is always refreshing.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by pjhair » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:47 pm

Admin wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:41 am
Unfortunately (or rather fortunately) I saw this debate on Gad Saad's channel:



What I took away from it is that Imam Tawhidi is mostly a narcissist (yes this again), he says he wants to change things but again, when you have someone who knows his stuff like that apostate in this video digging a little deeper, you realize it's BS, just a facade. The guy has his little following and it's not like he's taking a lot of risks with his ideas, he's still an ideologically brainwashed Muslim at the core as evidenced by this debate. At a point he loses it and just can't think rationally, so he resorts to diversion and name-calling. To me he's evidently practicing taqiya.
I watched the whole interview. I think Tawhidi was calm and reasonable in the discussion. What I got from him is that he is simply attempting to change the religion from inside. He recognizes that Islam will never reform, he just wants Muslims to start thinking differently. Having said that, I side with Mufassil Islam on this issue. He is right that, absolute, unequivocal and honest criticism of Islam is a lot more desirable in the long run.
Admin wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:41 am
Other than that, after thinking about it, I don't think I'm wrong about every Muslim being ready to partake in the fight for the worldwide caliphate if shit hits the fan at a point in the West, maybe not all of them because you have to take into account the people who are simply temperamentally unable to fight, but the vast majority for sure. I don't believe there is any hope of them ever modulating their toxic worldview. The chances are very, very slim, they're stuck. The brainwashing from childhood was just too strong and too efficient.
I don't think every Muslim is like that. Just from the debate above, there are people like Mufassil Islam who have left the faith. There are also people like Tarek Fatah who still call themselves Muslim but have spent all their lives fighting the lunatic ideas and traditions within Islam. He was almost assassinated in India last year but is still undeterred. Unfortunately their numbers are so tiny that they become irrelevant. So you are essentially right.

I have to say this Fred. Your understanding of Muslims is very accurate. It's almost as if you grew up among them and not in Europe.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Rudiger » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:03 pm

pjhair wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:47 pm
I have to say this Fred. Your understanding of Muslims is very accurate. It's almost as if you grew up among them and not in Europe.
Same thing

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by nameless » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:02 am

I don't have an objection to Trump being President except for the real possibility that he could be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in these 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around. I voted straight democrat because I want the democrats to discover and disclose the truth about potential collusion between Team Trump and Russia.

I'm an American and I want the USA safeguarded. I think it's impossible to protect the country if the person occupying the White House is an asset of a hostile and powerful foreign country - in this case Russia. I do not trust Russia. We in the west beat Russia in the Cold War...we drove them to financial ruin. Civilians were dying of starvation, their soldiers were dying of starvation in their barracks, their women became the whores for the world. We in the West humiliated Russia badly and they feel a strong sense of grievance because of that. They're angry at us and I think they want retribution. I think if we get too close to them and have trust in them 'it's just a matter of time until they stab us in the back to avenge their humiliating Cold War defeat.

I think the only way we can be sure if Team Trump is a Russian asset or not is to give the democrats some power so they can give out subpoenas, get the facts, and leak the facts to we the people of the USA. If it turns out that he's not a Russian asset then I'm going to stop being opposed to Trump being the President. Other than the possibility that he could be a Russian agent I really mind if he's President.

The republicans control the Supreme Court, the Presidency, the Senate, and the House of Congress. If the GOP's hold on all of government isn't broken up somewhat then the Republicans will conceal any unlawful link between Russia and Trump. We will never know the truth. I want the democrats to have some power so that we the people can learn the truth. The issue is just too disturbing. Many men and women have fought and died to protect America's democracy. I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by JeanLucBB » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:42 am

nameless wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:02 am
I don't have an objection to Trump being President other than the possibility that he might be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in the 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around. I voted straight democrat because I want the democrats to discover and disclose the truth about potential collusion between Team Trump and Russia.

I'm an American and I want the USA safeguarded. I think it's impossible to protect the country if the person occupying the White House is an asset of a hostile and powerful foreign country - in this case Russia. I do not trust Russia. We in the west beat Russia...drove them to financial ruin. They were dying of starvation, their soldiers were dying of starvation in their barracks, their women became the whores for the world. We in the West humiliated Russia badly and they feel a strong sense of grievance because of that. They're angry at us and they want retribution. I think if we get too close to them 'it's just a matter of time until they stab us in the back to avenge their humiliating defeat.

I think the only way we can be sure if Team Trump is a Russian asset or not is to give the democrats some power so they can give out subpoenas, get the facts, and leak the facts to we the people of the USA. If it turns out that he's not a Russian asset then I'm going to stop losing sleep over Trump being President. Other than the possibility that he could be a Russian agent I don't really mind if he's President.

The republicans control the Supreme Court, the Presidency, the Senate, and the House of Congress. If the GOP's hold on all of government isn't broken up somewhat then the Republicans will conceal any unlawful link between Russia and Trump. We will never know the truth. I want the democrats to have some power so that we the people can learn the truth. The issue is just too disturbing. Many men and women have fought and died to protect America's democracy. I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians.

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Dmx4MA0UYAER5Ea.jpg (49.09 KiB) Viewed 187 times
"I don't have an objection to Trump being President other than the possibility that he might be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in the 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around."

"I don't have an objection to Trump being President other than the possibility that he might be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in the 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around."

"I don't have an objection to Trump being President other than the possibility that he might be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in the 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around."


"I don't have an objection to Trump being President other than the possibility that he might be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in the 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around."

"I don't have an objection to Trump being President other than the possibility that he might be a Russian asset. If I knew for a fact that he's not a Russian asset then I wouldn't have voted in the 2018 midterms. But this issue of Team Trump possibly being a Russian asset drove me to vote straight democrat this time around."


"I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians."


"I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians."


"I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians."


"I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians."


"I don't want President Trump handing the keys of our democracy over to the Russians."
Dmx4MA0UYAER5Ea.jpg
Dmx4MA0UYAER5Ea.jpg (49.09 KiB) Viewed 187 times

Hairblues is right about this guy, ban this mindless fucking NPC piece of shit. He even writes like a computer program.
Last edited by JeanLucBB on Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by JeanLucBB » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:46 am

Rudiger wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:00 am
You're right that Kavanaugh was never proven correct, because that's impossible. You can't disprove every single action you've made as a human being that existed in your entire history. That does not equate to probable cause. However, trying to prove something that happened is a different story.

I would possibly prefer for the Dems to win on Tuesday (although every fibre of my being does not want this to happen), Trump has done an incredible job and I feel at least having an "opposition" will give him an excuse as to why the laws he wants to pass, are getting blocked. This is a win-win, he's definitely already getting a second term, winning the house will boost that, losing the House will increase his fanbase's loyalty.

So if they lose the house and if the economy and GDP continues to grow? He overcame adversity. If they win? And the economy continues to grow, then keep voting Trump. Pretty simple.

I even think that he knows this from watching his recent rallies and interviews, he's open to both possibilities- in terms of how he's approached the mid-terms and by no means is playing it safe. I get the impression that he doesn't even care if Republicans lose the House, it's all going to work in his favour regardless.

I don't want an echo chamber either and I understand your point, it's dangerous, however Trump is not like a Romney or anything, although he's careless in his speeches and on twitter but he's not careless when taking action. This guy was previously a Democrat for most of his life, I would rather a careless and often clueless maniac like Trump to be in charge over a John McCain, because you'd be drafted at this point if he was in control.

I don't like Trump's indecision over the second amendment, I don't like his absurdly fleeting politics when it comes to foreign intervention policy, and neither do most Republicans. However this is never going to be an echo chamber, his indecision is part of the fact he's probably a classic Liberal at heart, but knows what's best for his country.

I genuinely believe that Trump's gut instinct is to welcome even illegal immigration, for example, but at this point he knows it's gotten insane, and he's going to clamp down on it.
Did your views on Trump or politics change over time? I thought when I first saw you talking politics on HairLossTalk you were more sceptical of Trump and more leaning towards centrism.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Rudiger » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:24 am

JeanLucBB wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:46 am
Did your views on Trump or politics change over time? I thought when I first saw you talking politics on HairLossTalk you were more sceptical of Trump and more leaning towards centrism.
Not only was I more sceptical, I totally hated him, and not even that long ago is when my views started to change (I would guess maybe around several months in to his presidency, roughly a year ago).

But oddly enough my basic viewpoints on him haven't shifted much, I still think he can be very careless and wreckless, he is often oaf-ish and comes off like a moron at times (though before I was thinking that he's an actual moron, which is naive to think, considering where he's gotten in life) basically since, I've realised that culturally and politically I identify a lot more with Republican views.

Trying to pinpoint where I started to change is hard. I would say YouTube is actually a huge influence, for a long time I was in to watching debates on atheism, Hitchens, Dawkins, or generally just antitheist documentaries etc. That started to shift in to recognising the insanity of political correctness, I stopped caring as much about atheist videos because often watching people take on extremist religious folk is like shooting fish in a barrel (I'm actually agnostic by the way).

I would say Ben Shapiro probably got me more in to the right wing world, and I still don't mind him now and watch him regularly. But others online were more influential, ComputingForever, Sargon of Akkad, the iconoclast, BlackPigeonSpeaks, styxhexenhammer666, Steven Crowder.

And none of them I would say I idolize or anything, I mainly agree with all of them vaguely, maybe not in specifics but in overall logic. The most important thing that got me interested was seeing that Trump supporters (and some of these guys might not even regard themselves as Trump supporters, just enjoy what he represents) aren't part of some devoted MAGA cult which unthinkingly worships everything on the right. That's not at all the case, even Trump's biggest supporters still regularly acknowledge his faults and even mock him. When I was watching Crowder recently my friend thought this was a left wing show like in the same way John Oliver or Colbert mock Trump, then as the point of the actual video unravelled my friend was like "wtf? .. oh, so he's actually supporting Trump". People in the left tend to box all Trump supporters in to that mentality, when really conservatives are the new counter culture, and within that bracket is a lot of very differing opinions, certainly more varied than what's going on with liberals. To generalise I think Trump era conservatives are certainly more thoughtful and logical, not to say that there's no smart Liberals, but generally they are quite repetitive. That's why this ridiculous NPC meme hurts them so much, the truth hurts.

But I understand Trump derangement syndrome so well because- I actually had it myself, not even that long ago. I'm a bit disappointed in myself actually because generally in life I've never been one to sheepishly follow the crowd (or what mainstream media would give the impression is the crowd) and I normally have no problem with thinking in alternative ways and standing up for what I think is correct. But I was blindly hating everything Trump did, I really wasn't far off thinking he was "literally Hitler" etc. Not only this but I wanted to hate everything he did, I wasn't far off the Bill Maher thought process of actually wanting the economy to collapse, just to be right about Trump. That's pretty sick actually.

Ultimately America is not my country (although I do regularly go there) and Trump is not my president, so this is all meaningless, one could think. But this line of thinking has made me grow as a person (corny) in such a short space of time, I'm now always going to be open minded, within reason I feel I should really question things and dig more for the truth than what pops up as the first results when I Google something.

It's given me a much better understanding of why to question the media, how to read between the lines (for example, often a sensationalist CNN article or report will open with their twisted up views, but in the last paragraph or even sentence they reveal the actual truth of what they're talking about to be more "journalistic" and this is simply because the vast majority of people don't read that far) and seek what's actually going on. I thought I was that type of person before but I was actually just *woke* lol.
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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by JeanLucBB » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 am

Rudiger wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:24 am
Not only was I more sceptical, I totally hated him, and not even that long ago is when my views started to change (I would guess maybe around several months in to his presidency, roughly a year ago).

But oddly enough my basic viewpoints on him haven't shifted much, I still think he can be very careless and wreckless, he is often oaf-ish and comes off like a moron at times (though before I was thinking that he's an actual moron, which is naive to think, considering where he's gotten in life) basically since, I've realised that culturally and politically I identify a lot more with Republican views.

Trying to pinpoint where I started to change is hard. I would say YouTube is actually a huge influence, for a long time I was in to watching debates on atheism, Hitchens, Dawkins, or generally just antitheist documentaries etc. That started to shift in to recognising the insanity of political correctness, I stopped caring as much about atheist videos because often watching people take on extremist religious folk is like shooting fish in a barrel (I'm actually agnostic by the way).

I would say Ben Shapiro probably got me more in to the right wing world, and I still don't mind him now and watch him regularly. But others online were more influential, ComputingForever, Sargon of Akkad, the iconoclast, BlackPigeonSpeaks, styxhexenhammer666, Steven Crowder.

And none of them I would say I idolize or anything, I mainly agree with all of them vaguely, maybe not in specifics but in overall logic. The most important thing that got me interested was seeing that Trump supporters (and some of these guys might not even regard themselves as Trump supporters, just enjoy what he represents) aren't part of some devoted MAGA cult which unthinkingly worships everything on the right. That's not at all the case, even Trump's biggest supporters still regularly acknowledge his faults and even mock him. When I was watching Crowder recently my friend thought this was a left wing show like in the same way John Oliver or Colbert mock Trump, then as the point of the actual video unravelled my friend was like "wtf? .. oh, so he's actually supporting Trump". People in the left tend to box all Trump supporters in to that mentality, when really conservatives are the new counter culture, and within that bracket is a lot of very differing opinions, certainly more varied than what's going on with liberals. To generalise I think Trump era conservatives are certainly more thoughtful and logical, not to say that there's no smart Liberals, but generally they are quite repetitive. That's why this ridiculous NPC meme hurts them so much, the truth hurts.

But I understand Trump derangement syndrome so well because- I actually had it myself, not even that long ago. I'm a bit disappointed in myself actually because generally in life I've never been one to sheepishly follow the crowd (or what mainstream media would give the impression is the crowd) and I normally have no problem with thinking in alternative ways and standing up for what I think is correct. But I was blindly hating everything Trump did, I really wasn't far off thinking he was "literally Hitler" etc. Not only this but I wanted to hate everything he did, I wasn't far off the Bill Maher thought process of actually wanting the economy to collapse, just to be right about Trump. That's pretty sick actually.

Ultimately America is not my country (although I do regularly go there) and Trump is not my president, so this is all meaningless, one could think. But this line of thinking has made me grow as a person (corny) in such a short space of time, I'm now always going to be open minded, within reason I feel I should really question things and dig more for the truth than what pops up as the first results when I Google something.

It's given me a much better understanding of why to question the media, how to read between the lines (for example, often a sensationalist CNN article or report will open with their twisted up views, but in the last paragraph or even sentence they reveal the actual truth of what they're talking about to be more "journalistic" and this is simply because the vast majority of people don't read that far) and seek what's actually going on. I thought I was that type of person before but I was actually just *woke* lol.
Interestingly from my case I became an increasingly more hardcore Trump supporter over time specifically because I mainly consume centre-left independent media on Youtube for news. I've always found Youtube conservatives fucking terrible to listen to and too influenced by christian conservatism with an utter lack of populism. Most seem like uncool virgins who were picked on in school, and born with silver spoons in their mouths. I don't think their positions particularly on social policy have any long term potential in the political world going forward because of that. Namely the Ben Shapiro types. Despite that it means that most of my focus is on how utterly irresponsible and and intent on virtue signalling those on the left are seeing as I watch them 90% of the time.

I would support a centre-left candidate if they were actually responsible and cared about outcomes for the average citizen, but just for a few examples supporting drastically higher energy prices and destroying the energy grid (like the left have done in my state in Australia), mass immigration, supporting a minimum wage of $15 that would literally destroy thousands of businesses based on their current profit margins overnight and usher in huge increases in automation (when instead they could cut the virtue signalling dog shit and go for a negative income tax system which would achieve the same result without destroying businesses) just makes it clear they aren't interested in populist outcomes. They're interested in virtue signalling for the brainwashed, positive outcomes for the working and middle class be damned.

I do increasingly feel there are "no intelligent liberals" in the sense that virtually under none of their policies would the desired outcome be achieved. For example the minimum wage increase vs negative income tax debate is never discussed because being the NPCs the minimum wage line has already been permanently input and they'd sooner take it to the grave than actually process a single genuine thought for themselves and come up with something that could work without actually harming those they're trying to help. There are some like Jimmy Dore or Secular Talk on Youtube who are honest people and genuinely want to help achieve a grassroots, working - middle class revolution with populist policy, but ultimately they regularly they fall into the NPC trap of simply attacking anything Trump supports even if it hurts their cause like on immigration. It's certainly possible to achieve a centre-left revolution and more liberalised social policy in the United States, but its not happening if you effectively advocate for open borders, ending energy security with a war on baseload fossil fuels, giant noncompetitive corporate tax rates and taxes on the rich to the point they'd leave the country. No one is fucking saying that though, they'd rather spend their time calling Trump a fascist while simultaneously advocating for physical violence.

I also had the same experience with new atheists and atheism in general. Looking back I look at some of the key figures like Sam Harris and in particular the reality is he's a pseudo-intellectual degenerate who completely put me off the movement also. He's just as fervently religious in his political thought as any Christian, which he made as clear as possible on the Kavanugh issue recently. No "intellectual" topic more light weight than atheism.


Ultimately there is a lot that can be done to improve the lives of the average American I would like that Trump won't engage in like single payer healthcare, a zero interest college loan system, ending the drug war etc, but it sure beats how utterly reckless the Bernie branch of the Democrats are. Or the self-entitled, do-nothing, virtue signalling centre right fake populism of Obama. Virtually nothing Trump has done has put the country in a worse position than under Obama, the same can't be said for what a globalist Hillary or the economically genocidal policies of Bernie would result in.

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by rclark » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:56 pm

JeanLucBB wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 am
Interestingly from my case I became an increasingly more hardcore Trump supporter over time specifically because I mainly consume centre-left independent media on Youtube for news. I've always found Youtube conservatives fucking terrible to listen to and too influenced by christian conservatism with an utter lack of populism. Most seem like uncool virgins who were picked on in school, and born with silver spoons in their mouths. I don't think their positions particularly on social policy have any long term potential in the political world going forward because of that. Namely the Ben Shapiro types. Despite that it means that most of my focus is on how utterly irresponsible and and intent on virtue signalling those on the left are seeing as I watch them 90% of the time.

I would support a centre-left candidate if they were actually responsible and cared about outcomes for the average citizen, but just for a few examples supporting drastically higher energy prices and destroying the energy grid (like the left have done in my state in Australia), mass immigration, supporting a minimum wage of $15 that would literally destroy thousands of businesses based on their current profit margins overnight and usher in huge increases in automation (when instead they could cut the virtue signalling dog shit and go for a negative income tax system which would achieve the same result without destroying businesses) just makes it clear they aren't interested in populist outcomes. They're interested in virtue signalling for the brainwashed, positive outcomes for the working and middle class be damned.

I do increasingly feel there are "no intelligent liberals" in the sense that virtually under none of their policies would the desired outcome be achieved. For example the minimum wage increase vs negative income tax debate is never discussed because being the NPCs the minimum wage line has already been permanently input and they'd sooner take it to the grave than actually process a single genuine thought for themselves and come up with something that could work without actually harming those they're trying to help. There are some like Jimmy Dore or Secular Talk on Youtube who are honest people and genuinely want to help achieve a grassroots, working - middle class revolution with populist policy, but ultimately they regularly they fall into the NPC trap of simply attacking anything Trump supports even if it hurts their cause like on immigration. It's certainly possible to achieve a centre-left revolution and more liberalised social policy in the United States, but its not happening if you effectively advocate for open borders, ending energy security with a war on baseload fossil fuels, giant noncompetitive corporate tax rates and taxes on the rich to the point they'd leave the country. No one is fucking saying that though, they'd rather spend their time calling Trump a fascist while simultaneously advocating for physical violence.

I also had the same experience with new atheists and atheism in general. Looking back I look at some of the key figures like Sam Harris and in particular the reality is he's a pseudo-intellectual degenerate who completely put me off the movement also. He's just as fervently religious in his political thought as any Christian, which he made as clear as possible on the Kavanugh issue recently. No "intellectual" topic more light weight than atheism.


Ultimately there is a lot that can be done to improve the lives of the average American I would like that Trump won't engage in like single payer healthcare, a zero interest college loan system, ending the drug war etc, but it sure beats how utterly reckless the Bernie branch of the Democrats are. Or the self-entitled, do-nothing, virtue signalling centre right fake populism of Obama. Virtually nothing Trump has done has put the country in a worse position than under Obama, the same can't be said for what a globalist Hillary or the economically genocidal policies of Bernie would result in.
I'm only asking this to have a better understanding of your views. Politics is a sensitive topic, so
in order for me to not alienate other views (and everybody has the right to their own), I'm just
asking to understand your views better.

I'm no longer going to post my political views here, because people get pissed off and stop reading
my comments on non political views.

Trump does not agree with a Universal Health Care system. The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), is a
Universal Health Care system (By "Universal", I mean the United States, not the European Union).

Now, you don't like the liberal portion of America, because you feel that they criticize too much and
do not have a vision of their own?

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by Rudiger » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:30 pm

JeanLucBB wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 am
Interestingly from my case I became an increasingly more hardcore Trump supporter over time specifically because I mainly consume centre-left independent media on Youtube for news. I've always found Youtube conservatives fucking terrible to listen to and too influenced by christian conservatism with an utter lack of populism. Most seem like uncool virgins who were picked on in school, and born with silver spoons in their mouths. I don't think their positions particularly on social policy have any long term potential in the political world going forward because of that. Namely the Ben Shapiro types. Despite that it means that most of my focus is on how utterly irresponsible and and intent on virtue signalling those on the left are seeing as I watch them 90% of the time.

I would support a centre-left candidate if they were actually responsible and cared about outcomes for the average citizen, but just for a few examples supporting drastically higher energy prices and destroying the energy grid (like the left have done in my state in Australia), mass immigration, supporting a minimum wage of $15 that would literally destroy thousands of businesses based on their current profit margins overnight and usher in huge increases in automation (when instead they could cut the virtue signalling dog shit and go for a negative income tax system which would achieve the same result without destroying businesses) just makes it clear they aren't interested in populist outcomes. They're interested in virtue signalling for the brainwashed, positive outcomes for the working and middle class be damned.

I do increasingly feel there are "no intelligent liberals" in the sense that virtually under none of their policies would the desired outcome be achieved. For example the minimum wage increase vs negative income tax debate is never discussed because being the NPCs the minimum wage line has already been permanently input and they'd sooner take it to the grave than actually process a single genuine thought for themselves and come up with something that could work without actually harming those they're trying to help. There are some like Jimmy Dore or Secular Talk on Youtube who are honest people and genuinely want to help achieve a grassroots, working - middle class revolution with populist policy, but ultimately they regularly they fall into the NPC trap of simply attacking anything Trump supports even if it hurts their cause like on immigration. It's certainly possible to achieve a centre-left revolution and more liberalised social policy in the United States, but its not happening if you effectively advocate for open borders, ending energy security with a war on baseload fossil fuels, giant noncompetitive corporate tax rates and taxes on the rich to the point they'd leave the country. No one is fucking saying that though, they'd rather spend their time calling Trump a fascist while simultaneously advocating for physical violence.

I also had the same experience with new atheists and atheism in general. Looking back I look at some of the key figures like Sam Harris and in particular the reality is he's a pseudo-intellectual degenerate who completely put me off the movement also. He's just as fervently religious in his political thought as any Christian, which he made as clear as possible on the Kavanugh issue recently. No "intellectual" topic more light weight than atheism.


Ultimately there is a lot that can be done to improve the lives of the average American I would like that Trump won't engage in like single payer healthcare, a zero interest college loan system, ending the drug war etc, but it sure beats how utterly reckless the Bernie branch of the Democrats are. Or the self-entitled, do-nothing, virtue signalling centre right fake populism of Obama. Virtually nothing Trump has done has put the country in a worse position than under Obama, the same can't be said for what a globalist Hillary or the economically genocidal policies of Bernie would result in.
I actually think it was left wing YouTubers that got me in to the right, ironically enough but not surprising. That's actually a major aspect I had overlooked in my description of my "red pill journey" in the post above, it actually all started for me from when I found Liberal YouTube channels.

I actually wanted to engage in my hatred of Trump by understanding more about why I hate him, I particularly liked Sam Seder (not that well known), David Pakman, I do think Secular Talk is closer to sanity than say Young Turks, but they're all going to push you away from the left. Leftists don't even realise how much they push support from the left, and increasingly I see videos being posted from people about "why I left the Left", and the reason?

Liberal ideology is becoming more about extremism. The core principals don't really matter anymore, as long as you are being more and more progressive (or what they view as "progressive") it's not enough to welcome immigration, you have to like all forms of immigration, including breaking the law and encouraging migrants to make dangerous life threatening journeys to get near the border. You have to believe that current illegals should be able to vote, basically just give them all of the rights, let the problems from their own country be exported to yours. If you don't see it this way you are heartless. You need to feel just as extreme on issues such as socialism, and LGBT rights, if you show even a flicker of disagreement or questioning then you are scum. Antifa should have their way with you, and although most won't admit it publicly, of course they absolutely condone that sort of violence, we need to kill the Nazi's before they kill us!!

I mentioned Pakman before and he's a very popular Liberal youtuber/presenter, and formerly very reasonable. In the last year his popularity is declining, and as a result I can't believe how extreme and sensationalist his videos are becoming. Desperate to disagree strongly with anything remotely right of Bernie Sanders.

An actual example of people being pushed from the Left would be Lindsay Shepherd, who was very much a Liberal even after the left publicly screwed her over, she still insisted that she's "progressive" and found Jordan Peterson to be too right wing for her to agree with. 6 months on? "Why I left the Left" because by even being tolerant towards Peterson, hearing his side in online streams and debates (with others as well like Dave Rubin) she got death threats for being a Nazi, even though she was publicly arguing Liberal causes. She then started to see that not only is the Liberal company not worth keeping, but the issues themselves are insane and not worth arguing for. A similar thing happened to me, I firstly realised that the people who represented my political views are seeming increasingly insane, and then it started to hurt me that they haven't actually thought through their own beliefs. From there right wingers not only seemed "cooler" as part of the counter culture (relatable people like Crowder, Paul Joseph Watson, Gavin McInnes) but their arguments are so well rounded in comparison, Dems just kept looking more and more hilariously insane.

So that's how even Liberals are being pushed away, but is there any chance of Trump supporters crossing over? Fucking lol no way. Any time I try to have a reasonable conversation with a Liberal I instantly get so much shit for even remotely not thinking Trump is a total Nazi, even if I completely disagree with Trump on a particular issue but understand somewhat why he comes to such a conclusion, that's not good enough. It's too tolerant. You are back to square one, because they won't even pretend to listen or tolerate you unless you denounce everything about Trump and the current Republican party.

You covered some specific policies in your post and really, the most realistic danger is a Bernie clone taking over for nomination. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was simply just too dumb to really catch fire, and it was a hilarious few months of her popping up on the news, but she just got exposed so much that even the Left couldn't stand by her. But I would still absolutely love if she made a run for nomination, the Dems would screw over her chances before even getting real consideration by the public (much like they did with Bernie) but hey, a man can dream.

And brilliantly it still appears that fucking Hilldawg is the Dems best chance or most likely nominee. I've seen regularly in polls this year that she comes out way ahead of Biden or Bernie with regards to who Dems would most like to run (a few of these polls had her at nearly a third of the vote, with Biden way behind on like 10 or 12 percent).

https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists ... party/amp/

I mean really, so desperate.

Do you think losing the House tomorrow will even matter? I have a few reasons I think that it could possibly benefit Trump. He's struggling to get things through the House anyway, it definitely can't hurt him, if anything just gives him something to blame.

If Pelosi is the Speaker that is also absolutely perfect for him. She is the biggest advertisement for everything wrong with batshit crazy Liberals these days, this will only alienate her own party and it's support.
Last edited by Rudiger on Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~get 1k likes and party~ 8-)

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Re: Making sense of the current political climate

Post by JeanLucBB » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:50 pm

rclark wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:56 pm
I'm only asking this to have a better understanding of your views. Politics is a sensitive topic, so
in order for me to not alienate other views (and everybody has the right to their own), I'm just
asking to understand your views better.

I'm no longer going to post my political views here, because people get pissed off and stop reading
my comments on non political views.

Trump does not agree with a Universal Health Care system. The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), is a
Universal Health Care system (By "Universal", I mean the United States, not the European Union).

Now, you don't like the liberal portion of America, because you feel that they criticize too much and
do not have a vision of their own?

Obamacare is a disaster from the perspective of both sides of politics. Its overly complicated, it forces people to buy insurance (which was unpopular among the majority of the country), it provided among the worst service and coverage of any of the top 20 highest income nations with unnafordable prices that drastically increased over time, it was by far the most expensive to run of any healthcare system IN THE WORLD and significantly more expensive than all single payer systems despite very low coverage throughout the population. It discourages competition in the market amongst private insurers and gives zero incentive to reign in costs as people are forced to buy in, and because of how poorly designed the system was premiums continued to drastically rise particularly towards the end of the Obama administration (doubled in five years), and there was no free market mechanism to fix this. It was so expensive that there were more who were covered by no insurance at all than by Obamacare. It didn't allow people to buy insurance across state lines or have any provisions for capping medical malpractice expenses which benefited no one, and saw healthcare as a percentage of GDP increase hugely, services and quality of coverage dropped, premiums went up and still a significant number were uninsured.

Its on the level of the war in Iraq, or poor regulation of the banking system pre-08 in terms of policy disasters. Even more hilarious many consider it Obama's great achievement. Didn't realise that forcing people to buy healthcare that provided the worst service of any wealth nations system, with costs that doubled in costs within 5 years and the highest expenses of any healthcare system in the world, with 1/11 Americans still not covered was any sort of achievement. Its a disgrace.

The problem with Democrats is the only thing they're good at is virtue signalling and wasting money. There should be a single payer healthcare system, however I see absolutely no indication that the mainstream of the party supports one, but rather incremental additions to a remaining affordable care act, which is a fucking disaster. Single payer is one of Bernie's better ideas, but unfortunately his policies on examples like minimum wage, corporate taxes, immigration and particularly government climate change action and emissions targets are so economically genocidal that he's too irresponsible to ever consider voting for. When I look at "Liberal America" there are mainly two factions, the bernie wing of the Democrats and the corporatist, centre-right side like Obama/Hillary/Pelosi/Schumer etc etc. The problem with the Hillary side is they're effectively centre-right Republicans on most issues and only slightly more liberal on social issues, and they lack a national pride and are happy to sell the country out on issues like immigration and climate change purely for the sake of virtue signalling. The problem with the Bernie side is they have policies like a $15 minimum wage, extremist moves away from fossil fuels and various financial regulatory issues like huge taxes on stock trades that are economically genocidal, again focusing on virtue signalling rather than looking at potential outcomes.

The benefit of Trump over both those sides of the Democratic party is that contrary to the howls on both sides of Liberal America his policies are significantly more risk averse and lack any potential for long term damage. He's significantly better on the economy and after 8 years of Trump the reality is that the ability to allocate government services will be drastically increased because of a healthier corporate America. Its not going to fall into economic disarray as it would assuming Bernie implemented his full agenda. There is no respect of sensible governance on the side of the Democrats.

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