Productivity thread - The event edition

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23424

Post by yettee » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
I will say again that it was my fault for "letting it in", for letting it get to me
"Fault" is a tough word, it sounds like you did something wrong, but really it's entirely human and a natural reaction to feel like you did. So I wouldn't use that word here.. but that said yeah the outcome was preventable. I think you are right about this:
Admin wrote:
3 months ago
So if I rewind, I can pinpoint where I went wrong, and that's what I'm trying to fix: first, me not accepting abuse, and second, after it happened (because there's no way out of it), not entertaining those thoughts and letting them go.
As I see it, many or most people are deeply flawed, and there are maniacs everywhere... bullies who cannot stop being cruel, people who lead double and triple lives and lie to everyone, people who cannot get control of their addictions, people who are not capable of being rational, angry people, utterly selfish people, etc. These issues stem from deep psychological trauma, or DNA, or whatever, it doesn't matter, as for the most part it's difficult or impossible for anyone to change anyone else fundamentally, especially someone who is not a family member or close friend. With family or with a friend who we want to keep in our lives, we may wish to at least make an attempt to do that, to change someone. But with acquaintances, colleagues, strangers, forget about it, these deeply flawed and difficult people are how they are and we have no power to impact them. But in the same way, they should have no power to impact us. The crazy things they say (and do) are 100% a reflection of who they are and have no connection to anything about us. So sure, the constructive part of the comment you mentioned is fine and helpful, but the cruel part is a nothing, it's static, it's this woman looking at a mirror and talking to herself.

While we can choose our friends, and we really should accept family if we can, we can ignore strangers and move on. With colleagues... the reality is that it's not fun to deal with people like this, but they are everywhere, at almost every workplace, and we do need to put bread on the table!! So I see working with people like this as - this is somewhat annoying, but it is also inevitable (as inevitable as the rain), and therefore it is part of the salary. This is part of why people actually give us this incredibly sought after thing, money... to not walk away as one can do with a stranger or random bully, but to deal with people like this. As much as the salary is paid for doing productive work, its also for dealing with these people who we would otherwise never want to see or talk to again. It's also work. In some situations it is even perhaps the primary part of the work, as some people are so relentless in their bullying etc. that almost no one can work with them.
Admin wrote:
3 months ago
Then my second colleague was the main one to supervise me. Now I will preface this by saying that I respect her a lot and I don't think she's a narcissist at all. She was partly doing what my other colleague was doing, there was positive reinforcement, but from very early on, there was also abuse. How do I know it was abuse and I was not just imagining it? It's simple, she would apologize later for having said something hurtful, assuring me that she didn't mean it and asking if I was OK.
For me, you are giving this person too much credit and respect, and this is the core of the problem. She likely apologized to you not to make you feel better, but to help her to live with herself and her own issues, including abusive behavior. I don't know if she's a narcissist, but you know "narcissist" is far from the only type of difficult, deeply flawed, problematic type of person. What she said was definitely abusive and wrong. On the surface, outwardly, of course you need to show respect, especially given the supervisory role she had, but in reality, whatever. She's talking to a mirror, in the end abusing herself, and worthy of pity more than anything else.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23426

Post by Arjen » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
You fire them. My employer was completely justified in doing that.

The job actually started well, I was happy, getting positive feedback and actually going home thanking God for having picked that job.

I had two colleagues and at the beginning, only one of them was present, he gave me very positive feedback while correcting my mistakes, we were working together with tight deadlines, there were moments in which I pushed myself to the point of exhaustion. And yet, I was energized by it and happy about what I/we had accomplished.

Then my second colleague was the main one to supervise me. Now I will preface this by saying that I respect her a lot and I don't think she's a narcissist at all. She was partly doing what my other colleague was doing, there was positive reinforcement, but from very early on, there was also abuse. How do I know it was abuse and I was not just imagining it? It's simple, she would apologize later for having said something hurtful, assuring me that she didn't mean it and asking if I was OK.

I will say again that it was my fault for "letting it in", for letting it get to me, but sadly, as far as I was concerned, the damage was already done, the seeds had been planted so to speak. Seeds like "That title's too factual, it doesn't make me want to read the article (constructive criticism, I will humbly take it and correct it, no problem so far)... Are you sure that you have a master in communication :eh:?!".

Those kinds of remark slowly and sneakily piled on until in mid-December. At that point, I was already kind of unconsciously walking on egg shells to avoid the kind of abusive comment above, not constructive feedback about my work. That morning, I arrive at work, and I see her being extremely nervous, with bags under her eyes, she tells me should couldn't sleep all night and she's been in the office since 6 in the morning. Of course I'm like "it's alright, I understand". At a point, she notices I cut a piece of paper a bit crookedly, and over that, she flies into a rage, screaming, covering her face with her hands.

I'm legitimately traumatized by this, I get scared and go numb, in my mind, thoughts like "this is all happening all over again! I deserve to be treated this way! It's all my fault!" 10 minutes later, she turns to me and says "I'm sorry! It wasn't you! I'm just not in a good place today".

It was to late for me. There were two long board meetings after that, the first ones I would actually attend, with a ton of crucial and complex information I'd have to assimilate, and I just wasn't there anymore. I was staring at my screen, sort of taking notes, not really getting what was going on. Everything snowballed from then on and I was unable to stop it, to snap out of it, to reset my mind so to speak. And that, was also my fault.

My colleagues were actually incredibly supportive and never doubted my skills or my commitment, but they were frustrated to see me in that state, and actually recommended that I take a long break and focus on healing those primordial issues. I refused and tried to push through, but in the end, I was forced to do it.

So if I rewind, I can pinpoint where I went wrong, and that's what I'm trying to fix: first, me not accepting abuse, and second, after it happened (because there's no way out of it), not entertaining those thoughts and letting them go. Not everything you assumed about me and my situation.

Negative feedback that's focused on the character of the person themselves does not work. It's either the other person figures it out on their own, or they won't accept it, get defensive and leave (like I did yesterday), it all depends on how good you are at giving people feedback, and it does not necessarily have to be positive.

But what you can't do is "I see what's wrong with you moron, it's this and this and this, now be a real man and fix it!". If people don't change after kind requests and you repeatedly pointing out the same mistakes, do them and yourself a favor and just stop, let them go, and replace them with people who will listen to constructive feedback.
That is some interesting insight there. Your one episode (with those chants at the pub about your baldness and your reaction to it) automatically springs to my mind.
I actually still see similarities between you and me in terms of perceptions, self-awareness, sensitivity. It just appears to me that the latter is mainly restricted to female rejection in my case.
In my current position, I have a (very competent) peer who has been making my life hard (and not even in a straightforward, but sneaky and cowardly way), but at the same time displaying deficiencies like your female colleague. I do notice them, but I primarily see them as an advantage over a very able, more experienced peer. It certainly helps that I get explicit positive feedback from the management in how I handle that person's peculiar traits and ways and the whole situation, but I was capable of that even before getting such reassurance. Never will everyone find the way I work great, never will every person I ever meet find me a cool or funny guy, but I can easily live off my own (balanced, but overall positive) perception of myself and the positive feedback I get - which is why it doesn't work with regards to females (as the positive feedback from attractive ones has never really been received, let alone constantly), and which is also why it's hard for me to relate to your reactions, as you apparently do get positive feedback/encouragement too.

Added in 1 minute 48 seconds:
yettee wrote:
3 months ago

As I see it, many or most people are deeply flawed, and there are maniacs everywhere... bullies who cannot stop being cruel, people who lead double and triple lives and lie to everyone, people who cannot get control of their addictions, people who are not capable of being rational, angry people, utterly selfish people, etc. These issues stem from deep psychological trauma, or DNA, or whatever, it doesn't matter, as for the most part it's difficult or impossible for anyone to change anyone else fundamentally, especially someone who is not a family member or close friend. With family or with a friend who we want to keep in our lives, we may wish to at least make an attempt to do that, to change someone. But with acquaintances, colleagues, strangers, forget about it, these deeply flawed and difficult people are how they are and we have no power to impact them. But in the same way, they should have no power to impact us. The crazy things they say (and do) are 100% a reflection of who they are and have no connection to anything about us. So sure, the constructive part of the comment you mentioned is fine and helpful, but the cruel part is a nothing, it's static, it's this woman looking at a mirror and talking to herself.

While we can choose our friends, and we really should accept family if we can, we can ignore strangers and move on. WIth colleagues... the reality is that it's not fun to deal with people like this, but they are everywhere, at almost every workplace, and we do need to put bread on the table!! So I see working with people like this as - this is somewhat annoying, but it is also inevitable (as inevitable as the rain), and therefore it is part of the salary. This is part of why people actually give us this incredibly sought after thing, money... to not walk away as one can do with a stranger or random bully, but to deal with people like this. As much as the salary is paid for doing productive work, its also for dealing with these people who we would otherwise never want to see or talk to again. It's also work. In some situations it is even perhaps the primary part of the work, as some people are so relentless in their bullying etc. that almost no one can work with them.



For me, you are giving this person too much credit and respect, and this is the core of the problem. She likely apologized to you not to make you feel better, but to help her to live with herself and her own issues, including abusive behavior. I don't know if she's a narcissist, but you know "narcissist" is far from the only type of difficult, deeply flawed, problematic type of person. What she said was definitely abusive and wrong. On the surface, outwardly, of course you need to show respect, especially given the supervisory role she had, but in reality, whatever. She's talking to a mirror, in the end abusing herself, and worthy of pity more than anything else.
I see this very similarly.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23427

Post by blackg » 3 months ago

A man who is not at war with the world, or not at war with himself, is a very admirable man.
endless sexless.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23431

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
You fire them.
I was talking about before you get to that stage, long before dismissal, there's a lot of serious meetings and procedures in place to make someone totally aware they may be losing their job if this continues.

In those meetings, I don't see how it's possible to give positive reinforcement, when they are going through disciplinary action and told it's staying on their record.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23435

Post by Johnson » 3 months ago

blackg wrote:
3 months ago
A man who is not at war with the world, or not at war with himself, is a very admirable man.
The greatest people in history were nearly always at odds with the world and thats how they made history.

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#23436

Post by blackg » 3 months ago

Johnson wrote:
3 months ago
The greatest people in history were nearly always at odds with the world and thats how they made history.
That's true but they used that angst in a driven, productive way.
Unlike some people we all have to deal with at work. You know the type: the average, resentful, angry plonker.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23437

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

Johnson wrote:
3 months ago
The greatest people in history were nearly always at odds with the world and thats how they made history.
This is very true

Image
blackg wrote:
3 months ago
That's true
Indeed
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23438

Post by Johnson » 3 months ago

I'm talking about the greatest and you're mind goes there. Wow.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23441

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

Johnson wrote:
3 months ago
I'm talking about the greatest and you're mind goes there. Wow.
Nobody can judge us
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23460

Post by Guest-4 » 3 months ago

Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago
But if they are repeatedly having problems? And never look at themselves? Then what do you do Afro? The important part of my post was Plan B, because a lot of the time giving endless reassurance just gets people nowhere. Like I said in my last post, there's no real way of being able to measure this scientifically,
There are any number of possible reasons as to what might be going on with your employees who need negative feedback, among them:

1) Whoever does the hiring there doesn't know how to select the best candidates, and then you end up with duds working for you.
2) They're good at hiring the best candidates, but it's a competitive area and there just aren't that many good people to hire. For both #1 and #2, the issue then is not that you're a bad motivator, that doesn't matter, because these employees are just not very good.
3) These employees have both and bad attributes, but you're somehow you're very perceptive at seeing the bad, and vision-impaired with respect to the good.
4) There's a locker room cancer at your place of employment, he's making everyone else lazy, there's not much you can do about it until you identify who it is.
5) The management (not necessarily you) is leading by poor example.
6) Western civilization has been fully pussy-fied, if you tell your employees to show up before 1200pm and with their shirts tucked in and not pick their noses while in meetings with clients then you'll be sued for emotional distress.
7) etc.

I'm not there and I don't know what's going on. What I would suggest in general is to i) consult with other people who have the same (or similar) job that you have, but in different organizations ii) review your hiring practices, go back and see if there warning signs for the bad apples that you might have missed; iii) limit negative criticism to the most key points, and sandwich them in between positive comments, aka "the shit sandwich"; iv) Make a few accommodations to help them out. Do that one, two, or three times, if things still don't work, fire them and move on.

You are the manager but you are not god, there are limits to what you can do.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23461

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
4) There's a locker room cancer at your place of employment, he's making everyone else lazy, there's not much you can do about it until you identify who it is.
I guess that by this you mean employees who actively sap the morale of others by complaining about everything all the time? Constantly saying nothing is done right and it's sapping their motivation? A former colleague of mine was constantly doing that, and I remember that kind of talk getting to me to an extent. Every time that colleague would descend into that spiral, I would think to myself "what the hell, things aren't that bad at all!" and it took some effort on my part to snap out of it.

Thankfully, he never managed to send the rest of the team down, but I can't recount the times we had to tell him to stop being so negative. And by 'we' I mean my other colleagues, some of them were harsh about it and I guess it was justified. Nice guy Fred could never go beyond kind remarks and humor to address it, while it had to potential to affect me way more than my colleagues. It's highly contagious too, some people in the team will inevitably jump on board, I know I've been tricked into it at times.

I'll definitely watch out for that kind of talk in the future, and make sure that 1) I address it and 2) I remove myself from the conversation if the colleague is not stopping.

It doesn't mean what they're complaining about is necessarily untrue, but ranting about it will only make matters worse.
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
You are the manager but you are not God, there are limits to what you can do.
My Christian OCD was kicking in, fixed that for you :angel:.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23462

Post by Guest-4 » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
I guess that by this you mean employees who actively sap the morale of others by complaining about everything all the time? Constantly saying nothing is done right and it's sapping their motivation? A former colleague of mine was constantly doing that, and I remember that kind of talk getting to me to an extent. Every time that colleague would descend into that spiral, I would think to myself "what the hell, things aren't that bad at all!" and it took some effort on my part to snap out of it.

Thankfully, he never managed to send the rest of the team down, but I can't recount the times we had to tell him to stop being so negative. And by 'we' I mean my other colleagues, some of them were harsh about it and I guess it was justified. Nice guy Fred could never go beyond kind remarks and humor to address it, while it had to potential to affect me way more than my colleagues. It's highly contagious too, some people in the team will inevitably jump on board, I know I've been tricked into it at times.

I'll definitely watch out for that kind of talk in the future, and make sure that 1) I address it and 2) I remove myself from the talk if the colleague is not stopping.

It doesn't mean what they're complaining about is necessarily untrue, but ranting about it will only make matters worse.
Yes, exactly like that. I borrowed the expression "locker room cancer" from sports, but I think that the expression can be used in general. I do believe that the concept is valid, that attitude can be contagious to an extent, and that workplace culture is a real thing. Some people just like to bitch. Like you, I don't think that they're necessarily always wrong, but there is the risk that they can propagate a negative feedback loop, one that will be very hard to get out of. If it's the wrong people bitching it might even become difficult for other people to point out positives or to even feel positives.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23503

Post by Uncle Grandfather » 3 months ago

koolaidshade wrote:
3 months ago
Good sir, that sounds excellent.

I'll just be at home playing fortnite with my wife's boyfriend and gonna take her 3 pitbulls out for a walk
Sounds pretty dope. Do you at least have a cuck shed?
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23508

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

Uncle Grandfather wrote:
3 months ago
Sounds pretty dope. Do you at least have a cuck shed?
a shed? oh no i dont do much gardening but my wife probably does. Is that why she has a spade tattoo on her ankle?

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23509

Post by Guest-4 » 3 months ago

It's very hard for me to get much done as I'm lonely and miserable. My girlfriend and I broke up in late December, I wasn't able to form in a connection in the twelve or so subsequent first dates, and I have no family in the area, so I'm all alone.

I am trying to get some work done with which I'm having some success, and am trying to cook and bake more. That is partly because most restaurants are closed, partly because I should be reducing take-out regardless, and partly because I need some way to express myself creatively. I think that my in-kitchen skills are seeing some improvement, I'm a decent cook but not a great one, and I'd like to be better. I've been baking bread, pudding, I made some meatballs that were pretty good, some falafel, I roasted a lot of vegetables. There are two yeast colonies in my kitchen, one for the sourdough, and one for the kombucha. I'll probably go back to the grocery store on Tuesday, and I'll be sure to have a detailed, thoughtful plan (lol) of what to pick, in order to make interesting recipes.
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