Productivity thread - The event edition

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23401

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

-no porn no fap, but had noctournal emission last night

-hiit 3-4 days a week, bodyweight workout

-skincare routine

-if only i had FUE since this is perfect time for follicles to rise up

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23402

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
Sorry to read that you got fired. You're a skilled man and thus I'm sure you can find something else, maybe something better than you have. But, this is hard for anybody deal with, and it's not a great time. The economy is in a freeze and you are newlywed. I hope that your country has a good unemployment insurance system.
Thank you for the kind words, Afro. I will try to take my time and make sure I pick the best option this time, I had this tendency to rush to the first person who wants to hire me because I was scared of being unemployed, and this despite having had several offers on the table at the same time, somehow I had this irrational fear that if I didn't agree fast enough, they would figure out how worthless I am.

Right now I'm happy I realized I just couldn't keep on living my life that way anymore. So even though it's like one of the worst times ever to find another job, I'm filled with hope for the future. And Belgium has like the best unemployment insurance in the world, and now that I'm benefiting from it, I feel no shame, now I know why more than 30% of my salary was taken from me in the past 4 years.

The amount of money you get is kind of outrageous though, and it's no wonder some people will abuse the system and see nothing wrong with becoming a couch potato forever. Thank God I would never be able to live my life that way either. I guess a balance needs to be found in that regard, the American system is way too harsh, and the Belgian system is way too lenient.
:christian-cross:

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23403

Post by rclark » 3 months ago

In these troubling times, I hope I don't lose my hair follicles.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23405

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
Thank you for the kind words, Afro. I will try to take my time and make sure I pick the best option this time, I had this tendency to rush to the first person who wants to hire me because I was scared of being unemployed, and this despite having had several offers on the table at the same time, somehow I had this irrational fear that if I didn't agree fast enough, they would figure out how worthless I am.
I'm pretty sure I've pointed out to you how Afro is always right on time to compliment whoever I'm arguing with, lol I thought he'd at least make more than one post in returning today, to try cover it a little. But kind words indeed.

Anyway, this quote isn't true, didn't you say on this forum that an employer once invited you to basically a re-do interview so you could show more enthusiasm (god I can only imagine how little shits you give in these circumstances) and you were just like, meh, that's me?

But take your time buddy listen to Afro, enjoy your one week of doing nothing a month. The progress you've made after being agoraphobic is amazing, no need to do anything further, just stop right there where you are.

Added in 56 seconds:
koolaidshade wrote:
3 months ago
-skincare routine
Can you explain further what this is?
Look, fat...

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23407

Post by Guest-4 » 3 months ago

Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago
I'm pretty sure I've pointed out to you how Afro is always right on time to compliment whoever I'm arguing with, lol I thought he'd at least make more than one post in returning today, to try cover it a little.
I do often step in and intervene to help others. You're right about that. But you're wrong about the motivation, it's not primarily about blocking you from harming others, it's primarily about helping the person that you, or anyone else for that matter, are trying to bash. My track record speaks for itself, and Admin knows that I've sent kind words to him in cases that had absolutely nothing to do with you, and the other regular posters know that too.

You notice it because you're very driven to pummel others with abuse. I think that in your mind, you genuinely believe that your harsh criticisms help others. Here's some reality: they don't. The psychological research is clear, negative feedback is simply not very effective, and positive feedback is almost always more effective. It's also common knowledge, and is more or less stated explicitly in widely-read books such as Jack Schafer's The Like Switch and Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Circling back to Admin, most -- all? -- of us, have no idea why he's been fired. So just from that we're not in a position to give informed advice or criticism, we don't know what happened nor why. Uninformed advice is virtually always worse than no advice, and usually says more about the person giving the advice than about the person receiving it. I also suspect that the person who is most critical of Admin right now is himself.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23408

Post by rclark » 3 months ago

Young IT Professionals (20s/30s) with experience are definitely in high demand these days. It might not be the same for people straight out of college, but it definitely is true that the IT industry prefers younger people over older ones.

https://www.brusselsjobs.com/job_search/

If it makes anybody feel better, I've been on the "wrong path" many times in my career. In fact, I am probably on the wrong path now.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23409

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

This may be the longest post I've ever written, but to probably everyone who won't read it, it's not a rant or anything even if it may look like it.
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
I do often step in and intervene to help others. You're right about that. But you're wrong about the motivation, it's not primarily about blocking you from harming others, it's primarily about helping the person that you, or anyone else for that matter, are trying to bash. My track record speaks for itself, and Admin knows that I've sent kind words to him in cases that had absolutely nothing to do with you, and the other regular posters know that too.

You notice it because you're very driven to pummel others with abuse. I think that in your mind, you genuinely believe that your harsh criticisms help others. Here's some reality: they don't. The psychological research is clear, negative feedback is simply not very effective, and positive feedback is almost always more effective. It's also common knowledge, and is more or less stated explicitly in widely-read books such as Jack Schafer's The Like Switch and Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Circling back to Admin, most -- all? -- of us, have no idea why he's been fired. So just from that we're not in a position to give informed advice or criticism, we don't know what happened nor why. Uninformed advice is virtually always worse than no advice, and usually says more about the person giving the advice than about the person receiving it. I also suspect that the person who is most critical of Admin right now is himself.
In this situation I'll concede you most likely would have given supportive words to Fred, but I have felt in the past you've already complimented someone, and returned to do it again after I've started arguing with them (I did actually spell this out once). I can't remember the example, it was only a few months ago.

Anyway, it means you insert yourself and look as good as possible, juxtaposing ol meanie Rudiger. However thinking of it now, I no longer think you do this intentionally "to look good", I think it's your attempt at a pick-me-up for the person who is being criticised. I can't be certain of this of course, you could still of course be doing this to look great compared to me, but for now anyway I feel I was wrong in assuming that, or at least wrong to assume it with certainty, for sure.

I am highly skeptical of the theory behind that Dale Carnegie book, I don't even think it's exaggerating to say it's mainly the how to guide on being disingenuous and manipulative as possible (and I don't care how many times he says "you have to believe in your compliments" and I don't even care if he genuinely means it, most people reading it will not utilise it that way). I reread that book not long ago and was just as disgusted as the first time, I was actually going to post a review here on how it's potentially ruined millions of people, pampering them in to being like spoiled children who can't self-evaluate.

It's not that I am unaware of how to temporarily make someone feel better (you're actually being very patronising in this assumption as you had no idea if I was aware of this line of thought), I have to do it all the time in management, I sometimes hate it, because you aren't changing people, you are manipulating them to temporarily change, in the long term they are justified that their attitude is perfectly fine. Or not even that, they are aware their attitude is warped, but because people pander to them and reassure them, they put off really facing it, they know it in the back of their mind, but just feel they'll change naturally over time, which of course never happens. I've seen real changes in people, not just in adjusting to one simple thing they're being stubborn about but adopting an entirely different attitude and being open to adjust in many ways. I've seen real changes in myself, and like anyone else, I can tell you those changes do not happen easily. Being helpfully guided to change one thing about yourself may fix that one thing and make you a better person in that area (or even worse, only temporarily) however really forcing someone to truly evaluate themselves on a somewhat animal bare bones level, to truly look at themselves and really examine who they are, what their morals and principles are. I mean the amount of people who really have zero awareness of what having morals and principles even means, they probably think it's taking care of their children, treating co-workers nicely and giving to charity, they don't know what it is to truly treat someone fairly that they hate, or to take the blame for something out of actual guilt when they could have easily gotten away with it. So many people couldn't ever give you an example of when they truly displayed a fully moral and good hearted decision, it simply doesn't enter their minds.

I have written about my pessimism towards people extensively on here but mainly on HairLossTalk, that the actual struggle of being a human being is the battle between your own selfish animalistic needs that biologically drive everyone. People have to learn to be domesticated as humans, at heart we are no different than animals who would eat their young (OK I'm sure there's scientific studies that can literally debunk this but you get what I mean basically).

What I at least have rested on is the idea that yes, nearly everyone is despicable in a lot of ways (and I include myself in that) but by what measure or standard if nearly everyone is? In that sense the standard is low, so people can't usually be expected to be fully good or genuine people, it's unlikely and the numbers are against them, basically it's not their fault and as a society we need to do our best to push this actual self-awareness and ability to truly evaluate oneself.

Dale Carnegie is the absolute antithesis of this, while I connect with his idea of truly engaging people and being genuinely interested in them to build bonds and relationships (and despite my persona on here this is actually how I function a lot in real life, because it certainly makes life easier and better) I get all that and buy in to it, but intentionally finding out their interests so they'll do what you want? Saying their damn name a lot to manipulate them? Pushing the "yes roll" on them so they'll naturally agree? These things are all disgusting, and not only that, they promote damaging and dangerous elements of society to rise to the top. For example when an important business deal is made, it's for everyone's interest that this is the best partnership possible based on merit, not because some guy saw a desk picture of another guys kid in a baseball uniform and they spent hours chatting about it.

Sorry that's going off topic, mainly focussing on how criticism of people needs to be clear and direct. I will agree with your main criticism of me that I have taken it too far and it's unnecessary at times, but I am testing what will get a reaction from people, it's often uncomfortable and I really can't be assed doing it (so the idea I enjoy it, that's baffling to me, nearly always anyway as I've admitted).

As an example not long ago in the gym, I left a barbell with 4 light plates on it out on the floor. That's really not good, unfortunately at my gym this is normal, a lot of people do it, and I had become the same, I will take the blame of course, but it doesn't help that there's zero signs up reminding people to rack their weights, and I've never once had or seen any staff telling someone to do so, (one other gym goer reminded me politely once and I'll get to that shortly, lol it's pretty obvious where this is going) basically there's zero emphasis, and when that happens, you feel like, why should I do it when others don't?

Well that's still not to justify it, but that is the group mentality of lots of people who go there, it's pretty normal when you go to the squat rack you'll have to take someone's weights off and fix up your own, I don't even think of it now. In my previous gym everyone racked and of course so did I. Now I would normally rack if I've left a total mess of the place or if it's heavy plates, but really even if it's light plates and easy to rack and fix, that's still not good enough to leave any weights out for someone else to clean up.

Anyway, about a minute after I walked away from the rack with the barbell and 4 plates sitting out, this big muscley guy came up to me and he was going quite nuts, he was just about holding it in from going insane. He started off with an intense tone but was technically polite I suppose, escalated quickly and was then pointing his finger at me "do you actually think that's acceptable?! You think that's ok do you?!" Etc. My instant reaction is exactly what Carnegie says which is true, I was stubborn, I played dumb, I was being an asshole really, and I'm definitely not proud of it. Although I can't help but smirk a little at my casual dumb reaction to the guy and how infuriated he quickly became :lol:

After a few minutes of eventually yelling, I was losing my temper and patience as well (despite how he'd no doubt kick my ass) and he gave up and walked off. I was a bit pissed off, I did a set, calmed down, and went and talked to him and we were civil and calmer in tone but still not best buds, he explained that everyone does it and it fucking pisses him off so he lost it, and then I cleaned up the weights. But we certainly weren't friendly and still aren't.

In that moment I still wasn't even thinking he was right, I had convinced myself that I was right, but I'll rack them anyway to keep the peace. It weighed on my mind over the rest of the day (it's not normal to get shouted at by strangers after all) and I started to realise, actually, that guy is right, and it doesn't matter if everyone does it, don't be an asshole like they are, and that man did a great deed (regardless if he was mainly just letting off steam from all the times he's seen it done). So what happened from then on? And even now in the privacy of my home, where it doesn't even matter if I rack my weights?

Not only do I make no exceptions whether it's light weight or whatever, not only do I always do the basics of always racking my weights, every time I use a machine or weights I quickly inspect how I'm leaving the area, I ensure that everything is fine for someone else to pick up from there (even if that someone is going to be myself at home, that's also in part because it's just habit now and I like the area looking clean when I've finished my work out).

The aforementioned guy who politely told me to rack once? I sort of listened to him, probably why I adopted the habit of only most of the time racking my weights, only if it's heavy or particularly messy. I had this attitude of meh, that'll do, it's basically fine, because he didn't affect me (I do kind of know that guy as well, I don't know if you'd see that as an influencing factor either way but I don't believe so).

What made me change for good? And not only for good, but above an expected standard? Someone bollocking me, making me really think and question myself. If he had politely and nicely asked, ok I would have also definitely complied and probably less stubbornly as well, but weeks down the line, months, when I'm seeing other people leave weights all over the place, and nobody being told off about it, would his polite reminder have changed me? Or would I slip back in to my habits?

That man still had been giving me angry looks for months and still would be now if the gym wasn't closed, but he has no idea I really appreciate what he did, and I generally feel better and with a clearer conscience about how I orchestrate myself not only at the gym, but generally.

Do you know what inspires genuine change in someone? It's not buttering them up, and calmly telling them to reevaluate just this one time, generally you're fine. By the way I'm also not promoting the Irving Tressler mentality either, my attitude is somewhere in between, while I'm saying buttering people up doesn't usually inspire change I am also aware it's not merely limited to only sternly and directly telling them, I'm just saying most of the time this is your best chance. It's incredibly difficult to truly change a person and very hard to truly change yourself, but I have been giving this particular subject lots of thoughts for years, and of course this is mainly based on anecdotal experience. I don't think it's really possible to measure what inspires true change in a person, by what standard or metric, if real change was actually necessary and under what circumstances. Habits however are probably more achievable to measure and I read about that recently in a book called Atomic Habits, but that's still not the same thing in this instance, because those habits are usually things people already want to do (exercising, studying, stop smoking etc) so that's not at all the same as "you need to really evaluate your self centered tendencies and change because people notice this regularly" and how do you even measure from there?

But you are giving me this advice on how to affect people psychologically and change them, and I'm literally asking this and not trying to be rude, what experience do you really have? I think it's good and well intentioned that you encourage people around you, but can you really evaluate if it's good for them in the long run? Because it's just as possible your relentless positivity is like an overbearing mother who at the same time actually can't say no, and thinks their loving attitude is helping, but can often be pushing their child down the wrong path.

I don't think this is an example with Fred by the way, your encouragement and understanding is practically harmless from what I can see (I was being over the top and facetious about it in previous posts, it was mainly to try illustrate my point but it wasn't honest) however there are examples with others where I think you are genuinely enabling people with some terrible characteristics. I am certain this is not your intention (while I have said some bad things about you, I would definitely not include you as being capable of such an intentionally psychotic trait, that's more in the Wolf bracket) but that is how I've seen it at times.

This is not just me exaggerating to make a point either, I have plenty of examples of people in management who couldn't say no or couldn't give direct and honest criticism, and in turn pushed people down the wrong path so badly over time, until they were actually wrong for the company.

I can think of an entire department of people that were literally completely ruined, out of about 20, half of them had become so impossible to deal with because of one supervisor doing damage over only 3 years, and the other half could still be fixed but had picked up so many bad traits from being in that toxic environment.

It was such a mess, that department is actually gone now, they were being going to made redundant in a few months and it's cut short early because of The Event. Even the decent ones that were eager to move departments, I couldn't force these people on other supervisors or managers- they actually wouldn't even consider anyone associated with that group, that's how bad of a reputation these people attained in such a short time. To give you a sense of how bad this was- in a normal department of that size, you might have a few shit stirrers, you'll have maybe a few small things come up daily, and more serious misconduct once or twice a month which most people learn from.

With these people? Every day was a rollercoaster, after we installed a new supervisor with a team leader (intended to be temporary just to start things off, as the TL had experience in that team) it wasn't a few small things a day, it was a list of problems, tons of tiny petty things but also it wasn't just more serious misconduct here and there, it was repeated and often intentional, but they had it instilled in them that they'll get away with it. Their previous supervisor papered over every crack, nobody outside of that room had any idea how bad it actually was in there (their physical location in the building actually didn't help either). Within a week there was disciplinary action for a handful of people, and god they were all so stubborn and couldn't accept even the tiniest things, everything was worth questioning and their intentions were always to make everything as awkward as possible, because their previous ways were being told they were all awesome, and if there was something they weren't allowed to do, they would complain and question until they would wear down their supervisor. By the end of her time it probably didn't take much at all to wear her down, I actually think people weren't even asking her permission or approval on things, she had become so meek and irrelevant there was actually no point doing this charade of a routine of even bothering with her opposition and eventual caving in.

We had to bring in another supervisor (joining the first one and a TL) to also deal with them, who became permanently part of the team, and 6 months later despite all of their efforts (and mine, as well as others, HR etc) they were definitely improving but still, practically unworkable. There was signs of being tamed, and facing up to the idea they have to comply, and then a week later the same person could act out in some ridiculous way (even literally aggressively sometimes). And yes different people had to be fired, which of course is extreme in any company, being fired under such circumstances is really rare in mine. It's actually quite difficult to get sacked! It takes time and a lot of misconduct, disciplinary hearings, outcomes, follow ups, constant performance evaluation and feedback to show the effort put in to improving them, and despite all of this, 4 people were fired. Each case was incredibly strenuous and time consuming, and plenty of other cases that probably were going down the same route. Some of these people were so insane and insistent on never changing, that they've sat in disciplinary hearings for their colleagues/friends (as a witness for them) and we're actually there to see how and why they got fired, and the same "witness" had done the exact same thing, in 3 separate cases. They all repeated the same thing exactly how they saw someone got fired, it's like that's how they got the idea! (Though in each case they didn't repeat it enough to lose their own jobs, again they were probably going that way)

The initial approach from the first replacement supervisor was to calmly guide them to complying with company procedure, that was so incredibly time consuming and actually proved to be worthless. My more stern approach (I wasn't with them all the time though) did at least make them sit up and take things seriously, and less likely to rebel or reoffend, but still it was only a matter of time. I'm telling you, that entire group of people are all going to struggle in their next work environment, and half of them I actually think will take years to fix their habits. It was like Mad Max environment before, but these aren't even bad people (well by my "harsh" standards I would consider them bad people, but generally no, they aren't the worst people going or anything) but only a few years of blind faith and given free reign, made them all pretty ridiculous, and a lot of them flat out terrible in ways. Then they'd finish their work day, go home and be great parents or whatever.

So if you think I'm just using this theory as some weird excuse to rip people out, no, the above is only a few very clear examples of how damaging I find this approach, and how it makes people weak, unreasonable, selfish and unruly. Normally the examples aren't this clear, you have to try and be aware of what you're doing and how it affects others.

I do appreciate that you are saying I at least think I'm doing this with good intentions, as to me that's a very harsh criticism to say otherwise. I have admitted that there is a small part of me that does like getting it off my chest and just saying the thing, especially if I know I'm not the only one thinking it, however I will insist this is a small part of me and not necessarily one I like, and also one that is far from the primary driver of my motivations. I understand you may still disagree that it's only a small part.

Just finally (and congratulations to anyone who has made it this far) I understand your Carnegie approach, but what happens if it doesn't work? Let's say you have a close friendship or partner, and knowing them well on a daily basis and over time, you are in a perfect position to see how they change or how they refuse to change. If you guide and support them, encourage them in all ways while calmly reminding them that everyone has faults etc, gentle reminder of some way that they acted immorally or selfishly, what if they never take the hint? What if they appear to actually be embracing their bad side, and realise it gets them places and people put up with it, and what if it actually makes them worse? Is that an exception for you when you'd have to stand up and be more forceful and critical (like you have been with me for example, and I'm not saying that as a jab or anything but that literally is an example) or, ideally would you always take the "preferred" method?

I was supposed to end this post about 6 times so I'll try to not go in to too much detail, but I can think of another very good example of a close friend and co-worker who was totally oblivious to how rude she was at times, there were even literally group interventions and she's broken down crying after. Even after that, 2 weeks later she was back to being snappy, sarcastic, and oddly had this instinctive way to challenge any suggestion instantly, if she wasn't in a great mood.

Well, it took a very serious and long chat, and not remotely polite, to really dig deep and spell out how bad she can be, and how hard she needs to work on being aware of it at all times. And I mean this- also to really beat herself up about it, that may sound harsh to you (and it's not exactly an approach I'd push on someone depressed or suicidal of course) but that's what's required to truly change, for something like being totally oblivious to your rude attitude, you need to constantly reevaluate what you're saying, how you're saying it, and you need to do this 24/7, and evaluate in real time as well as in reflection. It's no good "mainly" being polite, because when you chip at that with the odd snappy comeback or sarcastic retort, and it wasn't that bad, then you're just opening the floodgates. I was totally on top of that right after our discussion, any sign of rudeness or even being unnecessarily challenging (the hardest one to watch for of course because with business ideas you want to encourage people to be challenging, but I would really watch for signs that she was simply disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, and it was initially sometimes very difficult to get her to admit to it, and then it became more normal as she became aware and it even became a light hearted joke, like "shit... I'm doing the thing again aren't I?" but I would never address it in front of other people of course) if she acted like that I would directly say it's clearly not good enough, you'll end up being hated again in a month, literally that people do not like you and that's simply the truth- I was really harsh about it and it was by no means an easy process.

It was no good her just saying "I'm improving... I'm doing my best" that will only lead to pushing yourself further towards old habits, when it comes to personal change you have to be incredibly strict on yourself. I do believe that any other way is merely the exception, and not the rule.

And, was that girl a success story? I would say so, mainly (so of course still a work in progress as of course "mainly" still isn't good enough).

Ok I'm done.
Look, fat...

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23410

Post by Guest-4 » 3 months ago

Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago
-- clipped --
I am not able to respond to every point of the above, so I'll simply limit my response to "what's good for Admin?", and "what do I know?"

What's good for Admin?

As before, neither of us knows since we don't know the details of his firing. It possible that his firing is his fault, and that he needs to fix something or even a few things. But at this point I think that we simply don't know based on the details that have been posted. Even if he had posted a comprehensive account, it would only be his version of his event, which might not be the same as his bosses. It's also not necessarily the best time to pound on Admin. He's probably in some sort of pain/grief/anger/anxiety right now, he's not going to be as receptive to criticism, regardless of whether or not it's valid.

What I do know about Admin is that he's capable of growth and has demonstrated significant growth in my time posting on these forums. I remember that early on he was learning Flemish in order to appease the employers there, and I think that (Zircon?) gave his some suggestions on how to improve his CV. He's been through at least two positions since.

The majority of advice that people give is completely uninformed, and that will be the case for professional advice that we give to Admin here. If he decides to post some specific and tangible details and asks for comments, we can offer it then,

What do I know?

I have been through significant personal growth including in the employment area. I was fired from many jobs when I was 18-25 years old, and none since. My previous boss had told me that I was one of the best 4 or 5 people out of the ~50 or so that he had previously employed in that position. I have supervised and managed, various people, in various projects.

And that's really irrelevant, because what actually matters is the clinical research and the experiences of large numbers of people. Positive reinforcement works better.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/negative-feedba ... mprovement
https://wp.nyu.edu/dispatch/2018/05/03/ ... forcement/
Research by academics Emily Heaphy and Marcial Losada examined 60 business leadership teams and their performance at an information-processing company. Essentially, the teams were rated by a set of factors, such as customer satisfaction ratings and financial data, to determine performance. What they found was that the highest performing teams held a positive-to-negative feedback ratio of 5.6, or 5.6 compliments for every negative one. The lowest performing teams held a ratio of 0.36 or 3 negative comments for every positive one.
Though that's not always true:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5239721/
And even that's irrelevant, because both of negative and positive feedback will be of null or negligible use in the absence of information, see point #1.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23411

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago

Can you explain further what this is?
the skincare routine is what i've been doing all the time before having to work from home. its the same stuff (the holy trinity aka sunscreen, tretinoin, vitamin c serum, plus other things) but i've changed my vitamin c serum and will do some clay masks once or twice a week (many thanks to evillocks for recommending the Origins rose clay mask, the tube has lasted me more than a year now)

I have also started finding ways to make healthy foods even tastier, perfecting ways to cook frozen burgers, veggies, and other things that have a longer shelf life.

and wtf is with the walls of texts from you and afro up there? ^^

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23412

Post by Uncle Grandfather » 3 months ago

Animal Crossing on the Switch, while chugging Soylent.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23413

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

Uncle Grandfather wrote:
3 months ago
Animal Crossing on the Switch, while chugging Soylent.
Good sir, that sounds excellent.

I'll just be at home playing fortnite with my wife's boyfriend and gonna take her 3 pitbulls out for a walk

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23414

Post by blackg » 3 months ago

As far as the differences regarding Fred and Rudi's approach to life: different strokes for different folks. Rudi strikes me as a personality that has a higher threshold for burnout.

Rudi also seems to respond more to the physical world, while Fred, the metaphysical.

I am also extremely sorry to hear about you losing your job, @Admin. Seriously, this stuff affects me as I only want the best for my friends here.

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3 months ago
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23419

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
I am not able to respond to every point of the above, so I'll simply limit my response to "what's good for Admin?", and "what do I know?"

What's good for Admin?

As before, neither of us knows since we don't know the details of his firing. It possible that his firing is his fault, and that he needs to fix something or even a few things. But at this point I think that we simply don't know based on the details that have been posted. Even if he had posted a comprehensive account, it would only be his version of his event, which might not be the same as his bosses. It's also not necessarily the best time to pound on Admin. He's probably in some sort of pain/grief/anger/anxiety right now, he's not going to be as receptive to criticism, regardless of whether or not it's valid.

What I do know about Admin is that he's capable of growth and has demonstrated significant growth in my time posting on these forums. I remember that early on he was learning Flemish in order to appease the employers there, and I think that (Zircon?) gave his some suggestions on how to improve his CV. He's been through at least two positions since.

The majority of advice that people give is completely uninformed, and that will be the case for professional advice that we give to Admin here. If he decides to post some specific and tangible details and asks for comments, we can offer it then,

What do I know?

I have been through significant personal growth including in the employment area. I was fired from many jobs when I was 18-25 years old, and none since. My previous boss had told me that I was one of the best 4 or 5 people out of the ~50 or so that he had previously employed in that position. I have supervised and managed, various people, in various projects.

And that's really irrelevant, because what actually matters is the clinical research and the experiences of large numbers of people. Positive reinforcement works better.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/negative-feedba ... mprovement
https://wp.nyu.edu/dispatch/2018/05/03/ ... forcement/


Though that's not always true:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5239721/
And even that's irrelevant, because both of negative and positive feedback will be of null or negligible use in the absence of information, see point #1.
There's no doubt that nearly always, positive feedback and affirming confidence in people is not only what pushes them to respect you and your opinion, but encourages and motivates themselves for better results. In the short term or temporarily, this will get the best results, of course from the outset I'd always try and be encouraging, positive and have belief in the person in front of me. But if they are repeatedly having problems? And never look at themselves? Then what do you do Afro? The important part of my post was Plan B, because a lot of the time giving endless reassurance just gets people nowhere. Like I said in my last post, there's no real way of being able to measure this scientifically,

So why don't I regularly positively push people on here and assure them they have done nothing wrong and deserve nothing but the best? Because I don't know that, I'm hearing it from only their side which is always dangerous, they could be omitting vital details, they could be totally full of shit, and it's not like I care terribly about their employer or whoever is possibly in the "wrong" in their scenario, I'm just not contributing to the damage this person is doing to themselves in seeking out other people to validate them.

In work it's different, I have to endear myself to others, and they are my responsibility, I have to be on their side and try to (within reason) see things from their side and try to give them the benefit of the doubt (and the amount of times I've been let down, even from people on management level, is countless). On here? Nobody is my responsibility so I have no reason to automatically give them the benefit of the doubt, I can question their accounts, if they are repeatedly having the same problems, I can question their capability or if they are remotely dedicated.

I also expect that same standard applied to me, I know most people don't operate like this, but I for example I absolutely hate when managers in work or people above my head, assume (without knowing me or anything about me) that everything I do must be great, well planned and organised, any issues that come up could never be my fault (which isn't true). I mean sure, it makes life easier when it comes to our discussions and meetings, but did anything get fixed? Did we resolve anything? Was I forced to truly examine myself? It didn't happen naturally that I hated this kind of presumptuous feedback, but over time I started to recognise how worthless it is, it's patronising and coddling, and it gets us nowhere.

Your first article says that people who receive negative feedback, simply "move away" physically from the source of such feedback, and on to forge new networks. Does that take in to account maybe the negative feedback was justified? I see this literally "move away" in different forms all the time, and it's often the biggest leeches in the place, they push bad or wild ideas on people, get rejected, go and complain to others to get validated, and guilt them in to accepting their shitty idea because the "new network" person they've attached to, is too afraid to say no, knowing how sensitive that person is. Also afraid of that person quickly going on to form another "new network" and bitching about them.

I'm not saying Dale Carnegie's methods don't work, I just find it horrible that they do, and I find it worse that the majority of people instinctively apply them, and the majority of people expect them. The point being here, that people wouldn't have "new networks" to move to if they didn't know that other people would coddle them, they'd continue to actually tackle the negative feedback, continue working with the source that provided it, and try and grow stronger. Instead, they "move away".

I find it really unlikely that someone should ever receive 3 negative comments to every 1, it goes without saying this would be unnecessarily hounding of someone and if it's normal for every employee, then of course that's going to be a hostile environment. I would also wonder how there's 6 positive comments to every 1, but I can still imagine that (if that's on average though, but it does seem quite high). What would the 3 "negative" comments be? We don't actually know the specifics of how this was laid out, but for you it's definitive proof for something that's actually subjective and down to opinion and experience. Worse is the first article you posted, that's just an interview, neither you or me have any clue exactly how this study was measured, yet you just write conclusively "And that's really irrelevant, because what actually matters is the clinical research and the experiences of large numbers of people. Positive reinforcement works better."

This is a study of social behaviour, it's not mathematics or science and there's nothing concrete, post another 200 vague studies and feel validated that you are definitely right (even though the 2nd one you just posted promotes a mixture of mainly positive but also negative feedback, which is exactly what I'm saying).
koolaidshade wrote:
3 months ago
the skincare routine is what i've been doing all the time before having to work from home. its the same stuff (the holy trinity aka sunscreen, tretinoin, vitamin c serum, plus other things) but i've changed my vitamin c serum and will do some clay masks once or twice a week (many thanks to evillocks for recommending the Origins rose clay mask, the tube has lasted me more than a year now)

I have also started finding ways to make healthy foods even tastier, perfecting ways to cook frozen burgers, veggies, and other things that have a longer shelf life.

and wtf is with the walls of texts from you and afro up there? ^^
I also got the Origins rose clay mask thanks to Evil, but it hasn't lasted me a year at all and I use it inconsistently. I would guess I've probably only used it a dozen times, maybe at most, perhaps I spread it too thick? I don't think so though. Maybe your face is tiny? Or mine is gigantic? I have no idea how you're using it twice a week.

Walls of text I don't know, what do you want me to say? Wtf is with that question?
blackg wrote:
3 months ago
As far as the differences regarding Fred and Rudi's approach to life: different strokes for different folks. Rudi strikes me as a personality that has a higher threshold for burnout.
In my late teens and early 20's I was particularly sensitive, and actually I feel in some ways I still am, but certainly a lot stronger and a lot more willing to examine myself and face up whatever it is I feel I'm doing wrong. This can be small actions that represent a larger attitude as well.
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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23422

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago


I also got the Origins rose clay mask thanks to Evil, but it hasn't lasted me a year at all and I use it inconsistently. I would guess I've probably only used it a dozen times, maybe at most, perhaps I spread it too thick? I don't think so though. Maybe your face is tiny? Or mine is gigantic? I have no idea how you're using it twice a week.
i spread it pretty thinly over my face, and i think my face is pretty huge.

i use probably around half a teaspoon of it and i spread it paper thin and it ends up drying within 10 minutes.

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Productivity thread - The event edition

#23423

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago
But if they are repeatedly having problems? And never look at themselves? Then what do you do Afro?
You fire them. My employer was completely justified in doing that.

The job actually started well, I was happy, getting positive feedback and actually going home thanking God for having picked that job.

I had two colleagues and at the beginning, only one of them was present, he gave me very positive feedback while correcting my mistakes, we were working together with tight deadlines, there were moments in which I pushed myself to the point of exhaustion. And yet, I was energized by it and happy about what I/we had accomplished.

Then my second colleague was the main one to supervise me. Now I will preface this by saying that I respect her a lot and I don't think she's a narcissist at all. She was partly doing what my other colleague was doing, there was positive reinforcement, but from very early on, there was also abuse. How do I know it was abuse and I was not just imagining it? It's simple, she would apologize later for having said something hurtful, assuring me that she didn't mean it and asking if I was OK.

I will say again that it was my fault for "letting it in", for letting it get to me, but sadly, as far as I was concerned, the damage was already done, the seeds had been planted so to speak. Seeds like "That title's too factual, it doesn't make me want to read the article (constructive criticism, I will humbly take it and correct it, no problem so far)... Are you sure that you have a master in communication :eh:?!".

Those kinds of remark slowly and sneakily piled on until in mid-December. At that point, I was already kind of unconsciously walking on egg shells to avoid the kind of abusive comment above, not constructive feedback about my work. That morning, I arrive at work, and I see her being extremely nervous, with bags under her eyes, she tells me should couldn't sleep all night and she's been in the office since 6 in the morning. Of course I'm like "it's alright, I understand". At a point, she notices I cut a piece of paper a bit crookedly, and over that, she flies into a rage, screaming, covering her face with her hands.

I'm legitimately traumatized by this, I get scared and go numb, in my mind, thoughts like "this is all happening all over again! I deserve to be treated this way! It's all my fault!" 10 minutes later, she turns to me and says "I'm sorry! It wasn't you! I'm just not in a good place today".

It was to late for me. There were two long board meetings after that, the first ones I would actually attend, with a ton of crucial and complex information I'd have to assimilate, and I just wasn't there anymore. I was staring at my screen, sort of taking notes, not really getting what was going on. Everything snowballed from then on and I was unable to stop it, to snap out of it, to reset my mind so to speak. And that, was also my fault.

My colleagues were actually incredibly supportive and never doubted my skills or my commitment, but they were frustrated to see me in that state, and actually recommended that I take a long break and focus on healing those primordial issues. I refused and tried to push through, but in the end, I was forced to do it.

So if I rewind, I can pinpoint where I went wrong, and that's what I'm trying to fix: first, me not accepting abuse, and second, after it happened (because there's no way out of it), not entertaining those thoughts and letting them go. Not everything you assumed about me and my situation.

Negative feedback that's focused on the character of the person themselves does not work. It's either the other person figures it out on their own, or they won't accept it, get defensive and leave (like I did yesterday), it all depends on how good you are at giving people feedback, and it does not necessarily have to be positive.

But what you can't do is "I see what's wrong with you moron, it's this and this and this, now be a real man and fix it!". If people don't change after kind requests and you repeatedly pointing out the same mistakes, do them and yourself a favor and just stop, let them go, and replace them with people who will listen to constructive feedback.
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