Alita: Battle Angel

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
Goebbels would regularly point out that Jews dominated positions in the German and European arts, sciences, and banking. He bragged that they were able to replace, for example, the Jewish filmmakers. There's a video recording that you can find. But the joke was on him, they might have won the war if they had kept their Jewish scientists.

"Evil" is a term that people throw around to describe anything that they disagree with. I prefer Socrates' analysis: No man knowingly commits evil. People always think that they're doing the right thing, unless they have a hole in their brain. Therefore, understanding people's actions in terms of their material positions, and/or their ideologies, is helpful.
Evil can never win in the end, freedom is the way of mankind and always has been. Even if they won, you think other Western people would have just sat there and accepted to live under a tyranny? How long do you think that would have lasted? But as I've said, they could never have won, and they knew they were committing acts of evil by the way, we all do.

That's why the second paragraph there is incredibly naive, and it's exactly the kind of believe that keeps evil alive and well in our current world. We all have an instinct for evil, it's been proven that even narcissistic know perfectly that they commit acts of evil, when they hurt others, they just don't care, why? Because they rationalize everything they do by analyzing how it's going to benefit them.

They ignore the totality of things, how each human being is sacred, how your freedom and dignity matter as much as theirs. Even on a personal level, you know when you commit an act that's evil, no matter how small. I know I'm always making a theological argument but I'm afraid there's no other efficient way to go against what you wrote above. I'd be careful exhibiting that kind of naivete if I were you. Every time I lowered my guard, I was struck hard, evil people are rare but they do exist, and all they need to achieve their goals is enough enablers.

Enough people willing to turn a blind eye or try to justify what they're doing by using quotes like "No man knowingly commits evil." Man, god help you if you believe that. As far as I can tell, you often seem to try to consider everyone's side of the story, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's a smart and rational way to go about it,

That said, there are moments in life where you need to make choices, and sometimes very fast, that's where a sharp sense of good and evil can become crucial. You don't act fast, you or someone you care for will pay for it. No rule can be absolute and it's not always the case that "both sides have their reasonable justifications for acting this way", nope sometimes one side is just plain evil.

It may seem unfair but since I know evil people cannot thrive without enablers, nuance won't matter, it's often something I see you do too: "we need to nuance this and look at it from all sides, look at all the variables", that's not how it works, because in the end, the choice you will make, to act or not, is binary. You need to pick a side based on what matters the most in that situation.

When you have to decide whether what the nazis did was evil, you don't go like "well, the German economy was in bad shape, and Hitler was a good orator, and there are geopolitical reasons that explain...", no, it was evil, deeply evil, and nothing, absolutely nothing can justify such atrocities. And all the person who knew and let them do it are as if not more evil than they were. They didn't do it, we did it, and we're still doing it when we downplay their nefarious acts as meaningless misfortunes of history.

I hope all this makes sense. To summarize: good and evil are real, more real than the dead material world and every human being decides every second whether they tilt the world more towards heaven or a little more towards hell.

“The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained."

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 3 months ago

I saw a Battle Angel Alita tonight and I thought that it was great.

Cinematically, it's mostly well done. The effects and the choreography are nice, there's a meaningful character arc as well as a romantic arc, I understood the motivations of the various characters (but not the villain), and the pacing was nice. The musical score is really nice, I might buy it so that I can listen to it while working it. I did notice that some of the dialogue was "on the nose" but I'm personally ok with that. I do however know that this can bother a lot of other people.

I think that I get what the movie is "about".
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It's about how a lot of modern society requires us to conform and more importantly to be docile. Human beings are wild animals by nature -- we're animals, period -- but civilization necessarily requires some docility, and the repression of our inner wild is one of the most consistent themes within literature. Battle Angel Alita is about one girl from whom docility is expected by everybody, and indeed some even want to fully de-activate her, and to remove her heart from her in the process. Her character arc is all about her becoming more and more wild, violent, and sexually assertive, coherently and simultaneously.

Alita starts off with no memory in the plot. She doesn't know who she is, or what she's capable of doing. She only ever finds out more about herself not in moments of ponderous reason and research, but in moments of primal and instinctive violence. As she gets in touch with her inner animal, her real self is uncovered. In order to know who she is, she needs to reject the docility that society imposes on her, and to unleash.
Last edited by Afro_Vacancy 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
I saw a Battle Angel Alita tonight and I thought that it was great.

Cinematically, it's mostly well done. The effects and the choreography are nice, there's a meaningful character arc as well as a romantic arc, I understood the motivations of the various characters (but not the villain), and the pacing was nice. The musical score is really nice, I might buy it so that I can listen to it while working it. I did notice that some of the dialogue was "on the nose" but I'm personally ok with that. I do however know that this can bother a lot of other people.

I think that I get what the movie is "about". It's about how a lot of modern society requires us to conform and more importantly to be docile. Human beings are wild animals by nature -- we're animals, period -- but civilization necessarily requires some docility, and the repression of our inner wild is one of the most consistent themes within literature. Battle Angel Alita is about one girl from whom docility is expected by everybody, and indeed some even want to fully de-activate her, and to remove her heart from her in the process. Her character arc is all about her becoming more and more wild, violent, and sexually assertive, coherently and simultaneously.

Alita starts off with no memory in the plot. She doesn't know who she is, or what she's capable of doing. She only ever finds out more about herself not in moments of ponderous reason and research, but in moments of primal and instinctive violence. As she gets in touch with her inner animal, her real self is uncovered. In order to know who she is, she needs to reject the docility that society imposes on her, and to unleash.
glad you liked it lol.

lets try not to have any spoilers in this thread, but yeah i agree with you that i couldnt understand the motive of the main antagonist. Music was good too, i actually listed to this on spotify before i even saw the movie:


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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Rudiger » 3 months ago

koolaidshade wrote:
3 months ago
glad you liked it lol.

lets try not to have any spoilers in this thread, but yeah i agree with you that i couldnt understand the motive of the main antagonist. Music was good too, i actually listed to this on spotify before i even saw the movie:

That's one awful song.
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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
I think that I get what the movie is "about".
Spoiler
Show
It's about how a lot of modern society requires us to conform and more importantly to be docile. Human beings are wild animals by nature -- we're animals, period -- but civilization necessarily requires some docility, and the repression of our inner wild is one of the most consistent themes within literature. Battle Angel Alita is about one girl from whom docility is expected by everybody, and indeed some even want to fully de-activate her, and to remove her heart from her in the process. Her character arc is all about her becoming more and more wild, violent, and sexually assertive, coherently and simultaneously.

Alita starts off with no memory in the plot. She doesn't know who she is, or what she's capable of doing. She only ever finds out more about herself not in moments of ponderous reason and research, but in moments of primal and instinctive violence. As she gets in touch with her inner animal, her real self is uncovered. In order to know who she is, she needs to reject the docility that society imposes on her, and to unleash.
The lack of distinction between good and evil makes your explanation incoherent:
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It makes you start with an inverted Rousseauian (edit: so Hobbesian) explanation: "Her true nature is savage, wild violent" so... Not good? Evil?

And you end on a fully and classically Rousseauian explanation: "The docility society imposes on her is bad and prevents her from being who she really is." so, bad? Evil?

It makes no sense, and most importantly, the moral you try to outline above is incoherent and inapplicable in our human lives which require the lens of good and evil.

You cannot interpret a work of art without it, or you inevitably produce circular and contradictory explanations like the above.
About the movie itself, judging by how its rating by both viewers and critics are going, I'll probably never see it.

My tastes almost always align with Jeremy Jahns' so I can see why he didn't like the movie that much (still a good time no alcohol required though).



She never gets her ass kicked, really? The main character is a female God who never loses? Gee that's peculiar in our current cultural landscape, I wonder why this kind of idea would make soyboy movie executive wet their pants?

I don't really see how a story can be meaningful if the main character doesn't even get beaten once, especially when fight choreographies are central in this movie. I understand why Jeremy Jahns felt the need to compare it to the Season 3 of Daredevil which absolutely blew my mind.

One of its central themes was Christianity (yes this again), so yeah, the hero had to suffer deeply and to get his ass beaten over and over again, and apparently here you don't have that here, it's: "God wins! Again God wins! And God wins again!"



As Jordan Peterson says: "That's dull".

I guess I'll end up watching it if its IMDB rating doesn't fall below 7.5, but I already know what to expect from it:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0437086/?ref_=adv_li_tt

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by blackg » 3 months ago

I agree with the more observant critics of this movie when they say that Alita looks to be no more than 14 years of age.

Is this a kid's movie?
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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
She never gets her ass kicked, really?
Jeremy Jahns didn't actually watch the movie. There is a long, detailed, and impactful scene where Alita gets her ass kicked (physically), there are also multiple instances where she suffers emotional and situational setbacks.
Admin wrote:
3 months ago
I wonder why this kind of idea would make soyboy movie executive wet their pants?
James Cameron is an alpha by any stretch of the imagination. He's extremely successful in both the professional world and with women, he's a brilliant man, he's a genuine expert at his craft, and the business world is so impressed with him that they let him do what he wants.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by koolaidshade » 3 months ago

@Admin just watch the movie lol it's good. no need to rely on the opinions of online critics or nasally voiced Raul Menendez, I mean Jordan Peterson.

Alita does get fucked up in that movie. I somehow wonder how the movie was even rated pg-13 in the first place. Not bloody as deadpool but still kinda violent in a good movie way.
Rudiger wrote:
3 months ago
That's one awful song.

Yea I probably shouldnt have posted that lol, its not even that good. I just happen to like a few of Dua Lipa's songs.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 3 months ago

koolaidshade wrote:
3 months ago
@Admin just watch the movie lol it's good. no need to rely on the opinions of online critics or nasally voiced Raul Menendez, I mean Jordan Peterson.

Alita does get fucked up in that movie. I somehow wonder how the movie was even rated pg-13 in the first place. Not bloody as deadpool but still kinda violent in a good movie way.
It's also not a universal rule of hero's journeys regardless. Though Alita did suffer a physical setback, most of her setbacks were emotional/situational, and that's fine. To give two examples, Luke Skywalker never gets beaten up in the original Star Wars, and Batman doesn't get beaten up in The Dark Knight. However, they suffer numerous emotional and situational setbacks, and that's what matters. Luke, for example, loses his aunt and uncle, and when he gets to Alderaan he sees that its destroyed.

Similarly, Alita's most interesting setbacks are her emotional and situational ones, not the kind where she gets beaten up.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Admin » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
James Cameron is an alpha by any stretch of the imagination. He's extremely successful in both the professional world and with women, he's a brilliant man, he's a genuine expert at his craft, and the business world is so impressed with him that they let him do what he wants.
Does having 4 failed marriages make you an alpha? This is where I understand why some people can't take that word seriously. He's a great storyteller, and he knows how to tap into powerful archetypal themes, even wrote the best female leads out there. Female characters who get their ass kicked and still remain fundamentally feminine.

Female protagonists these days are often written to be prodigies for no reason and can somehow kick everyone's ass because there is a need for strong female characters. Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy comes to mind. Again, that's just uninteresting and I hope you don't find too much of that in Alita.

I can already see that this movie is going to end up with a 6.8 note and be forgotten because of the flaws I've mentioned, it may not seem like much but history judges movies quite harshly and there are mistakes you simply cannot make if you want it to touch people on a deep level. I will probably watch it when it gets released on Blu-ray though.
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
It's also not a universal rule of hero's journeys regardless. Though Alita did suffer a physical setback, most of her setbacks were emotional/situational, and that's fine. To give two examples, Luke Skywalker never gets beaten up in the original Star Wars, and Batman doesn't get beaten up in The Dark Knight. However, they suffer numerous emotional and situational setbacks, and that's what matters. Luke, for example, loses his aunt and uncle, and when he gets to Alderaan he sees that its destroyed.

Similarly, Alita's most interesting setbacks are her emotional and situational ones, not the kind where she gets beaten up.
The main problem I see here is that the Alita movie is obviously centered around physical combat, so it would make sense to see her struggle quite a lot, to get her ass handed to her numerous times. I think it's really something that cannot work very well with female protagonists.

I was playing Uncharted 4 recently and there was a scene where you're supposed to beat up a woman, but of course, it's impossible, she kicks your ass no matter what you do. Like the video game industry, Hollywood has been drowning is soy for a while now so seeing women facing the same dire hardships as men on the big screen is simply something I don't even expect these days.

It's crazy that when I happen to enjoy a great movie or video game these days, I look at the release date and I'm invariably like "2012, well of course, this came out before the SJW Twitter mobs set out to bully movie and video game producers into sanitizing some aspects of their art". And yeah, it makes me sad, because it seems I will run out of meaningful art soon and the culture scene hasn't really started flipping back yet.

You don't see any daring work of art, you can't go see one movie without having politics in mind, every time you're like "oh yeah here it is, muh diversity, oh an anti-Trump joke, they could have taken this further but they didn't dare because muh political correctness". It's so bad that 1980's movies really stand out, "look at that, they're all white! Oh I can't believe this was allowed back then! Amazing! etc."

Anyway, there's a huge market for what I'm talking about here, something like, the greatness of the 80's movies with our current technical abilities and a big middle-fingers to the Twitter censors. I hope I see it happen soon. In the meantime, I guess I'll still enjoy those half-baked soy-tainted productions.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 3 months ago

Admin wrote:
3 months ago
Does having 4 failed marriages make you an alpha? This is where I understand why some people can't take that word seriously. He's a great storyteller, and he knows how to tap into powerful archetypal themes, even wrote the best female leads out there. Female characters who get their ass kicked and still remain fundamentally feminine.

Female protagonists these days are often written to be prodigies for no reason and can somehow kick everyone's ass because there is a need for strong female characters. Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy comes to mind. Again, that's just uninteresting and I hope you don't find too much of that in Alita.

I can already see that this movie is going to end up with a 6.8 note and be forgotten because of the flaws I've mentioned, it may not seem like much but history judges movies quite harshly and there are mistakes you simply cannot make if you want it to touch people on a deep level. I will probably watch it when it gets released on Blu-ray though.



The main problem I see here is that the Alita movie is obviously centered around physical combat, so it would make sense to see her struggle quite a lot, to get her ass handed to her numerous times. I think it's really something that cannot work very well with female protagonists.

I was playing Uncharted 4 recently and there was a scene where you're supposed to beat up a woman, but of course, it's impossible, she kicks your ass no matter what you do. Like the video game industry, Hollywood has been drowning is soy for a while now so seeing women facing the same dire hardships as men on the big screen is simply something I don't even expect these days.

It's crazy that when I happen to enjoy a great movie or video game these days, I look at the release date and I'm invariably like "2012, well of course, this came out before the SJW Twitter mobs set out to bully movie and video game producers into sanitizing some aspects of their art". And yeah, it makes me sad, because it seems I will run out of meaningful art soon and the culture scene hasn't really started flipping back yet.

You don't see any daring work of art, you can't go see one movie without having politics in mind, every time you're like "oh yeah here it is, muh diversity, oh an anti-Trump joke, they could have taken this further but they didn't dare because muh political correctness". It's so bad that 1980's movies really stand out, "look at that, they're all white! Oh I can't believe this was allowed back then! Amazing! etc."

Anyway, there's a huge market for what I'm talking about here, something like, the greatness of the 80's movies with our current technical abilities and a big middle-fingers to the Twitter censors. I hope I see it happen soon. In the meantime, I guess I'll still enjoy those half-baked soy-tainted productions.
Alita struggled more than Rey, but that's not a tall bar to clear.

Your criticism is ironic. You're blasting the movie (that you have not seen) on grounds of political correctness, when in fact a lot of the criticism of the movie online is Alita is not a strong female character, James Cameron should stop writing women, etc etc etc. For example, I find the opening paragraphs of this critique to be pretty dumb:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/movi ... eview.html

To a lot of the North American left / nerdosphere / etc, everything is about race and gender. To understand a movie, you can study how it treats race and gender, and stop there. It's patronizing and ridiculous. I sometimes wonder if they watch movies with an excel spreadsheet open, where they tabulate the number of lines spoken and the number of decisions taken in the movie as a function of the race and gender of the characters.

Among the variables in the world other than race and gender is culture. Battle Angel Alita is a product of 1990s Japan, which didn't have the exact same thinking patterns as progressives in the USA in 2019. Interactions with technology and with society play a significant role in a lot of the stories from that period of Japan, as do faceless corporations, for example Neongenesis Evangelion. Japan had been through a traumatic period during and after the second world war, where it again modernized and abandoned some of its previous mythologies, a necessary step albeit a painful one. The country was rapidly modernizing, and due to its geography, a larger fraction of the population lives in cities. For whatever reason, their writers are also more likely to use female protagonists as default, it's not the same thing as an American rebooting ghostbusters with a female cast, and it shouldn't be interpreted in the same way.

Japan was a society cut off from its past and which had just been through a terrible trauma. Similarly, the society in Battle Angel Alita is one that is cut off from its past, and which has just been through a terrible trauma.

Circling back to the above critique from the NY Times, their concern is with a scene in the movie when Alita gets a new body, which can change shape. The body is adaptive and thus conforms to her own maturing perception of herself, she goes from being like a teenage girl to being like a young woman, which includes larger breasts. The critic asks "why does a battle robot need breasts?"

That critic is so fucking stupid that it's painful.

Alita is indeed technically a robot, but in general, robots in science fiction stories aren't actually robots just like aliens are not really aliens, they're usually metaphors for human beings.

It is also the case that in literature, an obsession over a body part can be used to show alienation due to the separation between the body and soul. Alita starts off the movie in a body that is not hers, and she also does not know who she is or who she's supposed to be. Her being like a "teenage girl" who lacks full agency ties into that explicitly and implicitly.

The movie is also telling us, explicitly, why she's getting a more sexual body: the body is conforming to how she perceives herself. Alita is a sexual being in the story, she falls in love, and that arc is not parallel to the violence arc, it's integrated with the violence arc. Alita becomes a better soldier as she falls in love as she becomes a real girl. It's all in one. The reason that she has a sexual body is that she is a sexual being. It's not very complicated.

****************

I can't speak for video games but I agree that there's something lacking in a lot of the more recent movies.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by CaptainForehead » 3 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
3 months ago
Your criticism is ironic. You're blasting the movie (that you have not seen)
Yeah, can't take Admin seriously with stuff like this.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 2 months ago

CaptainForehead wrote:
3 months ago
Yeah, can't take Admin seriously with stuff like this.
I meant that it's ironic as @Admin is critiquing the movie on anti-SJW grounds, when it's in fact the SJWs who are dumping on the movie and contributing to its mediocre critical rating and public reception.

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by koolaidshade » 2 months ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
2 months ago
I meant that it's ironic as Admin is critiquing the movie on anti-SJW grounds, when it's in fact the SJWs who are dumping on the movie and contributing to its mediocre critical rating and public reception.
I was gonna mention that Alita was based off of some decades old Manga, but you already beat me to it. If a movie were to have some female protagonist, this would be perfect.

This movie to me seemed untouched by SJW agenda. Robert Rodriguez has always produced some entertaining stuff and he still does not disappoint me.

Alita isnt some "girl power" strong independent black woman that dont need no man bullshit. She's just another innocent naive young woman who happens to be a cyborg with human struggles. she's also very feminine and not butch-lesbian. she's dreamy <3

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Re: Alita: Battle Angel

Post by Admin » 2 months ago

Damn dat user score:

https://www.metacritic.com/movie/alita-battle-angel

I was probably wrong about this. I'm definitely going to watch it now.

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