Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by yettee » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:14 pm

Admin wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:37 pm
Of course, the liberal media will be much quieter when it happens on "their side" (yey, tribalism!), but they couldn't hide it when it happened with Asia Argento for example.
This isn't true though. A few months ago, a very powerful senator, Al Franken, was accused of patting a few women on the behind. No attempted rape, just a few inappropriate pats. There was a chorus from the left that he should resign, both from politicians and papers, and he did, quickly. It was noisy and he had virtually no defenders.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:19 pm

yettee wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:14 pm
This isn't true though. A few months ago, a very powerful senator, Al Franken, was accused of patting a few women on the behind. No attempted rape, just a few inappropriate pats. There was a chorus from the left that he should resign, both from politicians and papers, and he did, quickly. It was noisy and he had virtually no defenders.
That was at the start of this year, and considering Al Frankens various other allegations he actually got off lightly. I think there are definitely examples at the left eating itself, and this is not one of them, you're proving Fred's point if anything.
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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Admin » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:27 pm

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:05 pm
I have been thinking this over for several days now, and am very bothered by what I've seen in this and related discussions. I've seen the ridiculous claim that "witnesses don't count as evidence," which goes against common sense as well as thousands of years of precedence and writing in both of the Judeo-Christian and modern European legal history. You had a ridiculous conspiracy theory that Blasey Ford made up these claims (six years ago) in order to get more attention (which she doesn't need and doesn't benefit her). You've written that you would not believe 100 independent women accusing Kavanaugh of rape. You defended Trump making fun of a rape victim at a rally on the basis of mockery being funny.

The absolute tribalism and ideological dogmatism seen here is not a good look, nor is the wishing of pain onto innocents and even victims or simply condoning others who wish pain upon them.

Having thought about this for several days, I cannot in good conscience further participate in these discussions, and will be taking an indefinite break.
Afro, I won't explain myself again over all the above, what I find disturbing (although I understand why) is your insistence on seeing what you want to see, or rather derive what you want to derive.

About what @Rudiger said to you, if we look beyond the harsh way he got his point across, there is a smart point to be found.

Tomorrow, you wake up, and you realize that a woman you've been on a date with has started screaming all over the place (social media, the mainstream media, etc.) that you sexually assaulted her.

It could happen. How would you react? Are you currently thinking "well that would never happen to me! No woman would ever do that to me!" It's no trivial point here, it's the core of the matter. Maybe thinking about that will help you empathize with Brett Kavanaugh? I'm not naive, I don't think it will.

As for your last point, you're again placing yourself on the side of the good and in your mind, I guess I am a 'predator' again, an evil person who laughs at rape victims, I mean for God's sake, well I guess I addressed it again.

MadScientist left for the very same reason and this is always where it ends with people who are on the left these days: "I don't like this, me good, you bad! People like me good, people like you bad!" and then they either leave, delete you or block you. Let's say I don't think that's very admirable.

I hope you realize that we're all arguing (or at least trying) to argue in good faith on this forum, no one is actively trying to act evil or to make you feel uncomfortable. Believe it or not, everyone here has good intentions (except maybe @blackg, keeping my eye on you!).
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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:50 pm

Admin wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:27 pm
Tomorrow, you wake up, and you realize that a woman you've been on a date with has started screaming all over the place (social media, the mainstream media, etc.) that you sexually assaulted her.

It could happen. How would you react?
"How could I be a rapist when I never supported the Patriot Act?!?!"
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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Hairblues » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:10 pm

yettee wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:14 pm
This isn't true though. A few months ago, a very powerful senator, Al Franken, was accused of patting a few women on the behind. No attempted rape, just a few inappropriate pats. There was a chorus from the left that he should resign, both from politicians and papers, and he did, quickly. It was noisy and he had virtually no defenders.
There was another one also who stepped down but I can’t think of his name an old black congressman whose been in congress for decades. No photos or anything.

Also.
Look how hard many on the right (Trump) supported Roy Moore. Their is no actual hard dna or pictorial evidence there. But I think most people feel enough came out it raised enough doubt (in a slow drip drip drip fashion as these things do evolve) that it seems highly likely he was a predator or underage girls. Can it be proven in a court of law? Probably not but enough he shouldn’t be appointed to Supreme Court. And he lost the senate seat because the voters decided they didn’t want him (by a slim enough margin to be disturbing)

Supreme Court is much more honorable then a senator and ans life time.

That a former Supreme Court Judge who was appointed by a Republican president who initially supported BK nomination changed his mind AFTER his bombastic performance is more credible than people on the internet. As was Lisa Murkowsksy who spoke to his poor temperament in her senate speech (however she phrased it it’s easy enough to find on cspan or google)

The only time the Republican Party has an issue with sexual accusations is when it was Clinton. Where the fuck was Juanita Broderick’s proof of her allleged rape from 70s? The reason I bring this up is to give a little history lesson for those born later than me.

Clinton’s impeachment started with a special investigation into a real estate deal white water.
Somehow it led to an affair with an intern
The impeachment was for lying under oath.
So let’s remember this before we act like lying under oath is not a big deal, it for sure is.

Now when Paula Jones sure civil case Clinton guess who her lawyer was (for those who cringe about Avanati)? KellyAnne Conway.
And it was Kelly Ann Conway’s hisband who found Juanita Broderick. Whose claims are unsubstantiated.
And Paula Jones case was initially dismissed due to lack of legal evidence but after Monica Leeisnjy scandal she appealed and at that point the president Clinton settled for everything else going on for $850,000 which most went to her lawyers. Not exactly a lot of money Even in those days.

I’m only pointing this out when people say the democrats play dirty as if the republicans have clean hands
They don’t.
Do you see those faces in the senate? Those republicans are the same players their mostly since I was in HS. And they’re dirty. As dirty as democrats if not dirtier.
Last I checked democrats didn’t mislead the country to go to war in Mid east. You know, that shit that arguably indirectly started or greatly contributed to the exodus of refugees to Europe and USA.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by yettee » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:11 pm

Rudiger wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:19 pm
That was at the start of this year, and considering Al Frankens various other allegations he actually got off lightly. I think there are definitely examples at the left eating itself, and this is not one of them, you're proving Fred's point if anything.

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As if it matters that it was at the start of the year? :cry:

Other allegations? None nearly as serious as the ones facing Kav. Which is the point exactly. The left was far from silent when he was accused of less serious allegations. The left in fact said he should resign and he did. The Democratic politicians demanded that the Democratic politician resign. How in any way does this prove Fred's point?

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:20 pm

yettee wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:11 pm
As if it matters that it was at the start of the year? :cry:

Other allegations? None nearly as serious as the ones facing Kav. Which is the point exactly. The left was far from silent when he was accused of less serious allegations. The left in fact said he should resign and he did. The Democratic politicians demanded that the Democratic politician resign. How in any way does this proves Fred's point?
Well I could have just been pointing out that it was earlier than what you said. But thinking of it in another way, if I felt confident in having an opinion on something that happened a few months ago, but it actually turned out it was a lot longer away than that, it wouldn't look like I actually know what I'm talking about now would it?

Franken would have been pushed for criminal charges if he was a Republican, the fact he caved instantly meant he knew there was more to come out. Democrats got rid of him in office and essentially shushed the whole thing, if Kavanaugh had been in pictures like the one I posted, he wouldn't just lose his job.

Effectively what they did was "he's not one of us, nothing to see here" but for some reason you've flipped it in to thinking they really penalised him. Not at all.
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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by yettee » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:38 pm

Rudiger wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:20 pm
the fact he caved instantly meant he knew there was more to come out
?? The fact is that there was huge pressure on him by his own party to resign, and he did.
Last edited by yettee on Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:56 pm

yettee wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:38 pm
?? The fact is that there was huge pressure on him by his own party to resign, and he did.

So there are accusations against Franken and he's pushed to resign by his own party. There are far more serious allegations against Moore, for example, and he's pushed hard become a senator. When asked about his possible guilt the response on the right essentially was, its far too important for us to maintain the majority in Congress to worry about this. We don't believe these allegations. You don't see a difference?
I don't see a difference in the example you've brought up and hadn't even asked me about yet?

I'm repeating myself now but like I said, Franken got out and resigned, criminal charges weren't pursued and the whole thing was hushed. If it had gone to court it would have been "former Liberal Senator on trial next month" etc. which is what the Democrats do not want. Instead it was quickly extinguished and most people actually don't even know about it (even at the time). If that was a Republican, for example you brought up Moore, it would be common knowledge.

It's really one dimensional to think "look at how Dems were mad and forced him to resign end of story" well no, it should have been much worse for him. The story did indeed literally end there, and not a chance that the same lack of consequences would have occurred if he was Republican.

Roy Moore had allegations against him which he denied and were never proven, in your mind that's still a direct comparison to a senator who admitted he was at fault to most of the major accusations against him. I guess that would be the difference.
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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by yettee » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 pm

Rudiger wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:56 pm
I'm repeating myself now but like I said, Franken got out and resigned, criminal charges weren't pursued and the whole thing was hushed. If it had gone to court it would have been "former Liberal Senator on trial next month" etc. which is what the Democrats do not want. Instead it was quickly extinguished and most people actually don't even know about it (even at the time).
I dont see how it was hushed? The thing disappeared because he resigned and wasn't seeking further office. If he seeks office again for sure it'll be brought up. If he hadn't resigned it wouldn't have been "hushed" and there probably would have been proceedings in Congress discussing it and what to do, maybe a resolution against him, maybe a spectacle not very different from what we saw this week (but of course smaller as the stakes were smaller and the accusations less serious). Lots of people knew about it, it was huge news until he resigned.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Afro_Vacancy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:21 pm

Admin wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:27 pm
Afro, I won't explain myself again over all the above, what I find disturbing (although I understand why) is your insistence on seeing what you want to see, or rather derive what you want to derive.

About what @Rudiger said to you, if we look beyond the harsh way he got his point across, there is a smart point to be found.

Tomorrow, you wake up, and you realize that a woman you've been on a date with has started screaming all over the place (social media, the mainstream media, etc.) that you sexually assaulted her.

It could happen. How would you react? Are you currently thinking "well that would never happen to me! No woman would ever do that to me!" It's no trivial point here, it's the core of the matter. Maybe thinking about that will help you empathize with Brett Kavanaugh? I'm not naive, I don't think it will.

As for your last point, you're again placing yourself on the side of the good and in your mind, I guess I am a 'predator' again, an evil person who laughs at rape victims, I mean for God's sake, well I guess I addressed it again.

MadScientist left for the very same reason and this is always where it ends with people who are on the left these days: "I don't like this, me good, you bad! People like me good, people like you bad!" and then they either leave, delete you or block you. Let's say I don't think that's very admirable.

I hope you realize that we're all arguing (or at least trying) to argue in good faith on this forum, no one is actively trying to act evil or to make you feel uncomfortable. Believe it or not, everyone here has good intentions (except maybe @blackg, keeping my eye on you!).
All right, fine.

I do find many of your views on these subjects to be unfortunate, but at the same time, I think that it's unlikely that you are an agent of harm in your personal life, in the real world, and thus it is not fair of me to dismiss you in that manner nor in a sufficiently similar manner. I am sorry.

Regarding the probability of a false accusation, the risk is extremely small. False accusations of rape are known to be rare. I already spend enough time fearing some genuinely plausible problems: I fear car accidents, I fear sudden health problems such as spontaneously getting pancreatic cancer, I fear for the future of my niece and nephew given their parents' continuing poor lifestyle choices, I fear ending up alone, I fear that my laptop is going to get stolen, I fear that other academics might be working on similar ideas as I am but they will be finished earlier, etc. It's already a lot. I can't spend my time fearing additional absurdly unlikely events.

However, more realistically, there are actual ways that women could harm me, without lying. I've never raped a woman. I have, however, in the past been a whiney bitch, who used to send too many emails or texts or phone calls. I have explicitly discussed this. I've already thought about this and decided what I would do if it came out. I would say the truth. I would say that these events actually did happen, that they're not right, that I'm ashamed, that I took extensive therapy to try and be a better person, and that I've already apologized to these women a long time ago.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Afro_Vacancy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:36 pm

Rudiger wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:50 pm
"How could I be a rapist when I never supported the Patriot Act?!?!"
I only found out about the Patriot Act issue on October 3rd, and thus I could not have brought it up earlier than that.

I wanted an independent opinion on Kavanaugh, so I asked a friend of mine, a successful lawyer, and an ideological libertarian. He's defeated me in arguments here and there for fifteen years running. He said that the perjury charges are a non-starter because it's very difficult to prove intent. He also said that he was hoping that Kavanaugh would be derailed as he is a big-government conservative who will "very cleverly defend terrible positions on privacy, civil liberties, and executive power. He literally wrote the Patriot Act."
Rudiger wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:50 pm
Can you spell out to me how any of these points mean he attempted a rape? Even if you're conspiratorial about the FBI investigations, how does lack of evidence equal evidence in your mind?

You list off a bunch of other things that aren't remotely relevant to attempted rape, and that makes me very suspicious about your motives. I guess partisans and those who supported the Patriot Act is relevant to being a rapist? What the fuck is actually going on here? No wonder I'm having a "temper tantrum" when I see such bullshit.

The only thing you can give me a lesson in life is how not to be a passive aggressive whiny little bitch. I know you were replying to my original point about Devil's Triangle to dampen my opinion generally like I'm just shooting down strawman arguments, this is how you operate and you've even admitted it before upon self reflection. Even though I respected the honesty it still doesn't mean you're ever going to change.
Now that I've actually read this post, I'll say that I would appreciate if you acknowledged your first error, at the very least. You assumed that I had ducked and run from a post that you wrote, rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt and giving the post a bump.

Perhaps I am at fault here, I'll reflect on it, but you are at fault as well. It was definitely wrong of you to assume that I ran away from your post, without giving me a second chance by bumping it.

A robust FBI investigation would be sufficient for Kavanaugh to be cleared in that respect. That would include going through the evidence, such as speaking to the witnesses and alleged witnesses. They have a lot of experts in forensic psychology, they have decent tools to identify liars.

I only started to care about perjury after I read that he committed perjury in his presentation to the senate. Once I was aware of that issue, I cared about that issue.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:41 pm

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:21 pm
All right, fine.

I do find many of your views on these subjects to be unfortunate, but at the same time, I think that it's unlikely that you are an agent of harm in your personal life, in the real world, and thus it is not fair of me to dismiss you in that manner nor in a sufficiently similar manner. I am sorry.

Regarding the probability of a false accusation, the risk is extremely small. False accusations of rape are known to be rare. I already spend enough time fearing some genuinely plausible problems: I fear car accidents, I fear sudden health problems such as spontaneously getting pancreatic cancer, I fear for the future of my niece and nephew given their parents' continuing poor lifestyle choices, I fear ending up alone, I fear that my laptop is going to get stolen, I fear that other academics might be working on similar ideas as I am but they will be finished earlier, etc. It's already a lot. I can't spend my time fearing additional absurdly unlikely events.

However, more realistically, there are actual ways that women could harm me, without lying. I've never raped a woman. I have, however, in the past been a whiney bitch, who used to send too many emails or texts or phone calls. I have explicitly discussed this. I've already thought about this and decided what I would do if it came out. I would say the truth. I would say that these events actually did happen, that they're not right, that I'm ashamed, that I took extensive therapy to try and be a better person, and that I've already apologized to these women a long time ago.
Is that really the logic here? The point was for you to reflect on if you were falsely accused of something, and your response is "well it's unlikely so I don't have to worry about it!". Could you have missed the point any more than that?

You're using points such as being partisan and writing up controversial legislation as a reason for someone being a rapist. You're happy to assume someone's a rapist just because you don't like them and you want to join the mob, and the only reason you can't put yourself in their perspective is because it's unlikely to happen to you. As long as it's happening to someone else, not your problem right? In fact why not fucking exacerbate it for them.

Fred is right when he says we all have good intentions and although I vent at ignorance a lot, my point here is shaking you in to actually reflecting on your logic here. It's absolutely fucked up, and so is many millions of other people, and normally you think things through and have reasoned explanations for your thoughts. I don't even mean that as a backhanded compliment or a blackg-esque "you're better than this" it's just simply true, and I think Liberal virtue signalling makes people shut their brain off and just believe what they want.

It probably suits you in real life and the company you keep to go with the narrative sexist Trump wants a rapist in SCOTUS. It's probably uncomfortable to deal with the fact there's no evidence and this is farcical, out of fear people will also think you're a rapist or something ridiculous. You were talking about your brilliant lawyer friend who, like you, thinks or irrelevant reasons for Kavanaugh not passing for SCOTUS- he's in a public job interview under ridiculous scrutiny for ridiculous accusations, most importantly- he shouldn't have been there in the first place. But as a side point, everyone on the left keeps talking vaguely about his "temperament" etc I mean at which part exactly? He never went nuts, he never spoke incoherently, under the circumstances he of course was going to get impassioned about it. If he didn't, you'd all be saying he's clearly some sociopath who doesn't care that he raped someone.

But with your friend and you, intelligence does not always equate to logic, in fact it can sometimes negate it entirely. Your take on this subject confirms that for me.
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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Hairblues » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:44 pm

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:36 pm
I only found out about the Patriot Act issue on October 3rd, and thus I could not have brought it up earlier than that.

I wanted an independent opinion on Kavanaugh, so I asked a friend of mine, a successful lawyer, and an ideological libertarian. He's defeated me in arguments here and there for fifteen years running. He said that the perjury charges are a non-starter because it's very difficult to prove intent. He also said that he was hoping that Kavanaugh would be derailed as he is a big-government conservative who will "very cleverly defend terrible positions on privacy, civil liberties, and executive power. He literally wrote the Patriot Act."


Now that I've actually read this post, I'll say that I would appreciate if you acknowledged your first error, at the very least. You assumed that I had ducked and run from a post that you wrote, rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt and giving the post a bump.

Perhaps I am at fault here, I'll reflect on it, but you are at fault as well. It was definitely wrong of you to assume that I ran away from your post, without giving me a second chance by bumping it.

A robust FBI investigation would be sufficient for Kavanaugh to be cleared in that respect. That would include going through the evidence, such as speaking to the witnesses and alleged witnesses. They have a lot of experts in forensic psychology, they have decent tools to identify liars.

I only started to care about perjury after I read that he committed perjury in his presentation to the senate. Once I was aware of that issue, I cared about that issue.
This is the real irony

He is a Republican elite political operative who was most likely a never-Trumper himself considering the company he keeps ( Condoliiza Rice, George W Bush)
He’s on a pre approved list from Federalist Society. An organization with a political agenda that’s most likely funded by the Koch Brothers.
This is something I commented on a few weeks ago on another thread. The Koch Brothers are the ones playing 3 dimensional chess, not Trump.
The Koch Brothers have worked very hard to make the courts conservative. And they now have it.
I actually don’t think he will over turn Roe V WAde I think it will be death by a 1000 cuts. But I think they will do a lot of things that will make the Koch Brothers and the Republican Elite very happy.

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Re: Kavanaugh sexual assault claims

Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:45 pm

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:36 pm
I only found out about the Patriot Act issue on October 3rd, and thus I could not have brought it up earlier than that.

I wanted an independent opinion on Kavanaugh, so I asked a friend of mine, a successful lawyer, and an ideological libertarian. He's defeated me in arguments here and there for fifteen years running. He said that the perjury charges are a non-starter because it's very difficult to prove intent. He also said that he was hoping that Kavanaugh would be derailed as he is a big-government conservative who will "very cleverly defend terrible positions on privacy, civil liberties, and executive power. He literally wrote the Patriot Act."


Now that I've actually read this post, I'll say that I would appreciate if you acknowledged your first error, at the very least. You assumed that I had ducked and run from a post that you wrote, rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt and giving the post a bump.

Perhaps I am at fault here, I'll reflect on it, but you are at fault as well. It was definitely wrong of you to assume that I ran away from your post, without giving me a second chance by bumping it.

A robust FBI investigation would be sufficient for Kavanaugh to be cleared in that respect. That would include going through the evidence, such as speaking to the witnesses and alleged witnesses. They have a lot of experts in forensic psychology, they have decent tools to identify liars.

I only started to care about perjury after I read that he committed perjury in his presentation to the senate. Once I was aware of that issue, I cared about that issue.
No fuck my first error, I said you definitely did that so you definitely did. I was a victim of your ignorance #BelieveSurvivors.

But really, I asked for these reasons that you're so sure he's a rapist, and the "evidence" proves it more than not, and you're still talking about the fucking Patriot Act? Why are you fucking talking about that when I was clearly mocking the fact you're deliberately moving away from the issue and intentionally talking about anything other than actual evidence of rape? So then you go on to completely prove my point.

I'm now supposed to believe that you never dodged my question at the time, and all the while you're still fucking ignoring it. I don't even care anymore, stick to your ignorance, if that's what makes you happy.
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