Western values and identity politics

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

Rudiger wrote:
1 year ago
Well surely it depends what she said? Not that I trust Russian authorities, it may well be insane and unjustified, but if any guy was to go online and talk about hurting or killing women, absolutely that is spreading violence filled hatred.

Well let's be honest here, a guy posting online about beating up women is hardly influencing society, but that's a good excuse to stop him personally doing some harm. It's a necessary evil.

This woman could be no different (it depends what she wrote, and I did look up her name but could only find posts in your gobbled up satanic alien looking language) if she is writing vague posts about hurting men, men deserve violence, death etc. She is capable of causing harm in society, imagine some dude gives her a parking ticket and she feels oppressed by the system, he's getting run the fuck over.

Again though it depends what it was, I think "free speech extremist" is the most hilarious term the media have invented recently, but it's all I can think of in explaining my next point. People think we're all about free speech but that's not reality, if we're against speech that involves violence or organising actual violence or terrorism, how can we claim to be free speech? Any restriction of speech is in a way anti free speech, as obviously a person can interpret "violence spreading" differently. Like if someone was to say on Twitter that everyone reading should go outside right now and shoot a Trump supporter, or "there's a Trump rally going on at this street who wants to join me in going there and shooting everyone", that's obviously serious, but if someone is to write "Trump supporters should be shot" is that spreading violence? Some could interpret it that way, so technically nobody is really for total free speech. As long as we are literally restrictive towards certain types of speech and support these restrictions (with the threat of criminalising the offender) then we need to re-define the parameters of what we're actually arguing for. It will be important at some point.

Anyway, I lost my train of thought there, I'm not "free speech by any means" or somewhat virtuous about being free speech (as a lot of people tend to be). Speech can be dangerous, we can't be open to absolutely every type of it just so we can pat our own backs and look all ethical.
I agree, Rudi.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by C4L » 1 year ago

I like this decision! Since women are biologically indifferent to men and hence transgender "women" they will be happy to compete with them.

US swimming authorities to let athletes choose to compete as male or female

https://www.rt.com/sport/440416-us-swim ... -category/

Eager to see this in other sports as well like tennis.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

I found out today that I'm a relative (through marriage) of Ben Shapiro.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Uncle Grandfather » 1 year ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 year ago
I found out today that I'm a relative (through marriage) of Ben Shapiro.
Lucky... that means you're related to Abigail Shapiro.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
I have read the Old Testament and the text is indeed very vile. God of Old Testament calls for genocide even at slightest of offenses such as worshiping other Gods. The text is indeed worse than even the Koran. However, it's irrelevant as modern Jews and Christians don’t act in accordance to the text whereas Muslims do. So even though Old Testament is more violent, Koran/Hadiths are far more dangerous because they have spawned an ideology that is highly resistant to modernization. As I pointed out in my previous post, not all fundamentalist ideologies are same and there is variation between their societal consequences. Fundamentalist Jains become so non-violent that they walk with clothes wrapped around their mouths so that they don't accidentally inhale and kill an innocent insect. Fundamentalist Hinduism gives you caste system, untouchability, etc.
I think that we agree on the foundations here ... but if the text is in and of itself not sufficient, what else is required to drive a people to fully buy into it?

There are multiple factors, but I think that one of them is here is that relatively secular leaders in the Muslim world have been undermined over the past few decades. Meanwhile, Islamic fundamentalism has been propped up.
pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
You acknowledge that fundamentalist Islam is problematic but you appear to believe that modernization is the answer (which I agree). The question then arises why hasn't Islam been able to modernize whereas other religions have? You blame it on western influence. I disagree with this notion. I think there are various factors. Geopolitical and other reasons may play some part (as in the case of Libya). However, unique Islamic doctrine and hermeneutics play a very, very important role in keeping Islam from modernization in a significant part of the world. I briefly discussed some doctrines that I believe play a role in my previous post. We can discuss it in more detail if you want. I think it’s an extremely important point and should be acknowledged by the world in order to establish a path to modernize Islam.
I agree that a society which fully embraces ancient Abrahamic religions probably cannot be modern.
pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
You have repeatedly argued that one of the main reasons driving Islamic terrorism is western interference. You regularly bring Libya as an example. I disagree with this notion. I see Islamic terrorism as a complex multivariate phenomenon influenced by various factors. In some places such as Libya, western influence may have played the main role (I will take your word for it as I haven't studied the country). However, at other places I will argue that western influence is not the main driver of terrorism and other factors and their interplay take over such as the doctrine of Islam (Pakistan, India) or tribalism (Syria). However, before I do that, I want to discuss the revival of “armed jihad” in the modern time as practiced by many Islamic terrorist groups.
Were Pakistan and India not deliberately set up by the British as part of a "divide and conquer" strategy? Have they not been partly played against each other in the decades since?

Which of Pakistan or Bangladesh has a more promising future, and why? To the best of my knowledge, it's Bangladesh, but it's difficult to assign credit as there are a number of differences.
pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
Terrorist groups like Al Qaida believe in armed Jihad. Where does this belief comes from? Is it a byproduct of western influence? The answer is no. Presence of the US army in Arabia may have pissed of Islamists like Bin Laden however, it doesn’t explain why do terrorist groups believe in the notion of martyrdom and violent jihad.

In modern times, the concept of armed jihad was actually brought to light and made popular by the Egyptian thinker and writer Sayyid Qutb, the ideological godfather of Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Al Zawahiri (the second in command in Al Qaida). He was one of the most prominent members of Muslim Brotherhood. He visited the US in late 1940's for two years. He was disgusted by the materialism of the "US" and west. He was convinced that living in accordance with the Koran and Hadiths is the best way to live life. He was disappointed with the Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser’s vision of secular Egypt and became involved in a plot to assassinate him. However, he was caught and sent to prison. In the prison, he was regularly beaten and tortured and was eventually executed. However, while in prison, he wrote a 30-volume interpretation of Quran called “In the shade of Quran”. It’s one of the most popular exegesis of Quran around the word. He wrote another book in jail called Milestone which introduced the idea of martyrdom and armed jihad. The book became wildly popular. If you walk on the streets of Indian, Pakistan (or any Sunni Muslim country), you can easily find this book being sold by Muslim sellers. It’s an extremely popular book and has basically created a veneration for the ideas of martyrdom and armed jihad in modern Muslims. Upon his death, Qutb was hailed (and still is) as a great martyr by Muslims.

You may argue that Qutb may have made the idea of armed jihad popular but without western influence, terrorists’ groups would have no reason to exist. That wouldn’t be an accurate argument as terrorists’ groups still exist in places that have no western influence and Muslim violence towards non-Muslims still existed in time where there was no west at all. Why do you think Indian Muslims have joined ISIS even though there is pretty much zero influence in India by the west? What drives a Bangladeshi Muslim to engage in terrorist activity against the US even though the US has never stepped in Bangladesh? The answer is simple. It’s the idea of universal brotherhood that Islamic doctrine supports. Attack on one Muslim is seen as attack on all even if they live in separate countries. To resist this attack, they engage in armed jihad. You might also argue that if armed jihad was made popular by Sayyid Qutb, how can we blame Islam for this? The answer is that Qutb drew his ideology from Quran, Hadiths and Islamic history. So, the ultimate source of this concept is Islam itself. Until there is mass and conscious rejection of these beliefs by Muslims, humanity will always be hanging by a thread and just one Sayyid Qutb will be sufficient to turn generations of Muslims into jihadists.
There are comparable nutcases such as this who were born Jewish or Christian and who identify as such. However, they have not succeeded in accumulating a comparable following. What's the difference?
pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
In your writings, you have regularly brought up Libya as an example of a Muslim country that was ruined by western influence. However, the factors that ruined Libya aren’t the same factors that have ruined or are in the process of running other countries, for example Syria. I will argue that tribalism was the main driver behind where Syria is today. When Bath party obtained power back in 1950’s, it came with a truly secular and socialist vision. People from minority community such as Alwaites, Druzes, Ismailies, etc. held important position of power. Sunni Muslims, who were majority, weren’t that high up in the ladder. The most prominent group were Alawites that held most of the power. However, maintaining that power was hard as there was always a fear of coup. So these groups installed people from their own tribes and even family on prominent positions in the government and army. It was a practical necessity because of the tribal nature of the region. However, these practices created resentment among Sunni Muslims for the government. That started a series of coup attempt, mass murders, rebellion and brutal suppression throughout the reign of Hafiz Al Assad and then his son Basher al Assad. Arab spring back in 2011 emboldened Sunni’ which resulted in an unprecedented rebellion which still continues. It wasn’t the west that created resentment among Sunnis, it was the tribal nature of their society that started and sustained a chain of events which took Syria where it is today.

You may argue that I am ignoring the role played by external countries such as Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. in Syria. They have provided weaponry, funding, etc. to different factions thus making the conflict worse. Yes, these factors may make EXISTING conflict worse however in the case of Syria, they didn’t create the conflict.

You appear to think that discrimination, oppression, etc. always leads to religious fundamentalism and other factors such as doctrine, hermeneutics, history, tradition, etc. play no role. If it’s indeed your position then it’s incorrect. Even under harsh British rule, Hinduism was able to proceed at the path of modernization. Reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy were resisting the British at the same time fighting against some bad Hindu practices and traditions. There are places in the present world where Christians are facing discrimination but still there is hardly any case of witch burning or anything remotely similar. I urge you to reevaluate your position.

I will end my argument with the following summary:

(1) Islamic terrorism is a complex phenomenon involving multiple factors and their interplay such as Islamic doctrine, tribalism, geopolitical reasons, etc.
(2) Islamic doctrine is one of the main drivers of the Islamic terrorism around the world.
(3) Unlike other religions, Islam is extremely hard to reform because of doctrinal reasons.
(4) Discrimination and oppression don’t always result in religious fundamentalism and it’s important to evaluate other factors.
It is certainly true that the Islamic world was not a blank slate prior to contemporary western intervention. You've credibly identified a lot of concerns. However, all societies are complex and contain a combination of ugliness and greatness. I think that it's likely that an overwhelmingly powerful external agent could tip the balance via intervention, and give one side power over the other, at least for a time.

But perhaps, these problems would still be present, at a lower but still problematic level, if they were in a position of strength and independence. I'm arguing that the chef messed up the recipe by adding in rotten cheese, you're saying that the recipe was already filled with rotten ingredients. That may be. Every society has problems. That includes every society that has ever been on top and did not have the excuse of externally imposed problems but that subsequently fell as well: Britain, Spain, Rome, Greece, etc.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

C4L wrote:
1 year ago
I like this decision! Since women are biologically indifferent to men and hence transgender "women" they will be happy to compete with them.

US swimming authorities to let athletes choose to compete as male or female
When I swim I'm a combination of both.

That's why I want to take @Admin to the beach when he visits Australia.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
When I swim I'm a combination of both.
That's why I want to take @Admin to the beach when he visits Australia.
Don't take him to a Queensland beach in January.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

By the way @That Guy , here are some paragraphs from an article that I read last night, from National Review, one of the leading conservative publications in the United States:

Under FDR’s leadership the patricians helped defeat Hitler, and with the counsel of the Wise Men laid the groundwork for the West’s victory in the Cold War. In the same years, WASPs such as Henry Chauncey (Groton ’23, Harvard College ’28) developed the SAT, a crucial step in the Ivy League’s transition from privilege to merit.

Yet perhaps the greatest achievement of the WASP establishment was its ability to subordinate the desire for power to an ethic of service. Deeply enamored though they were of authority, the old magnificos accepted limits. Averell Harriman was aghast when Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter’s national-security adviser, undermined Secretary of State Cyrus Vance. “If I had gotten in the way of the relationship between the President and the Secretary of State,” Harriman said of his own service in the Truman administration, “I would have been fired, and properly so.”


https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/ ... graduates/
It's a standard English term, and not a specifically leftist one.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Hairblues » 1 year ago

C4L wrote:
1 year ago
I like this decision! Since women are biologically indifferent to men and hence transgender "women" they will be happy to compete with them.

US swimming authorities to let athletes choose to compete as male or female

https://www.rt.com/sport/440416-us-swim ... -category/

Eager to see this in other sports as well like tennis.
Tennis would be interesting to be a unisex sport.

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

I think that this has not previously been an issue because the intersex population is quite small, and thus we don't expect a large number of elite athletes who are intersex. It may happen sometimes in the future and thus I'm curious to see how it's handled. I don't have a good solution.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

For @pjhair ,

Is India on Its Way Out of Poverty?


Video:



Link:

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/10 ... verty.html
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

I've been applying for jobs.

There's a decent temptation to apply for jobs in China. The benefit would be greater scientific potential. The future of science is plausibly in China, their young scientists are more dedicated, and their political structure better enables long-term planning. On the other hand, I'd be a cultural alien. It's tough to immigrate to a strange land in one's 30s.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

It's generally considered a good idea for school kids to learn multiple languages in school. The world is multi-lingual, and younger brains are more easily able to learn new languages.

https://www.rt.com/news/438110-france-a ... r-schools/
French kids should learn Arabic? Education minister suggests controversial curriculum change

Jean-Michel Blanque is the French minister of Education, so his opinion is relevant.

France’s minister of national education has expressed support for adding Arabic language to the school curriculum for French children, enraging the country’s right-wing that has warned of dire consequences if the plan goes ahead.

France should draw up a “qualitative strategy” for teaching Arabic language in schools, Jean-Michel Blanquer said during an interview on French television. He insisted that Arabic, along with Chinese and Russian, is one of the “great languages of civilization” and should be learned “not only by people of Maghrebi origin or Arabic-speaking countries.”


******

I'm not French, so I don't get a say. in my opinion, French and English should be mandatory. There should be an option for a third language, if there's public demand for it, and that could be Arabic. If I had children now, I would emphasize English, then Spanish, then Chinese, assuming that it was feasible to do so.
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

@pjhair ,

One more thing about identity. I don't know if I adequately understood your post. You wrote a lot, I wasn't in phase with it, so it's plausible that I misunderstood. I think that what you meant to communicate is that Islamic doctrine emphasizes Islamic identity, such that Muslims in different parts of the world feel a sense of kinship. This sense of identity can be a fertile ground for problems, such as spreading shared misery.

Was that one of your arguments?

I think that if we assume it to be true then it is a good argument for nationalism. Humans likely do, have an intrinsic need for belonging and group identity (i.e. not "citizen of the human race" and not "the individual" but something in between), we need to be part of a group. In the absence of alternatives such as national identity, more people will turn to alternatives such as religious identity. In this context, a lot of the countries in the Muslim world have completely unnatural borders, and thus it makes sense that more people turn to religious identity.

I would assume that the situation is shifted in countries that have a legitimate national identity, such as Iran and Bangladesh. You did mention Bangladeshi terrorists, but I'd expect the rate to be lower. The Bengalis that I've met often have a very strong sense of national pride.

A cousin of mine is a Moroccan Jew. He's religious and wears the kappa / yarmulke /skullcap. He told me that he feels 100% safe doing so in Morocco. However, he does not feel safe doing so in Paris, in neighborhoods where he might be surrounded by immigrants from Morocco or their children. Do you consider that difference to be surprising or expected?
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 year ago
I think that this has not previously been an issue because the intersex population is quite small, and thus we don't expect a large number of elite athletes who are intersex. It may happen sometimes in the future and thus I'm curious to see how it's handled. I don't have a good solution.
How about we don't make up rules based on the extremely rare exception? The solution is that there is no solution, because there is no problem to begin with.
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 year ago
I've been applying for jobs.

There's a decent temptation to apply for jobs in China. The benefit would be greater scientific potential. The future of science is plausibly in China, their young scientists are more dedicated, and their political structure better enables long-term planning. On the other hand, I'd be a cultural alien. It's tough to immigrate to a strange land in one's 30s.

I sure could be an interesting career move to go work in China. Maybe you could also find love? I don't know how open you are, I mean I know, but personally, would you go for a Chinese woman?

What would bother me the most if I chose to live in China would be the lack of

Image

and also the fact that I would be living under a digital totalitarian regime.

But at least they're efficient like you said, so that's something.

Nothing trumps freedom in my book though.
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 year ago
It's generally considered a good idea for school kids to learn multiple languages in school. The world is multi-lingual, and younger brains are more easily able to learn new languages.

https://www.rt.com/news/438110-france-a ... r-schools/
French kids should learn Arabic? Education minister suggests controversial curriculum change

Jean-Michel Blanque is the French minister of Education, so his opinion is relevant.

France’s minister of national education has expressed support for adding Arabic language to the school curriculum for French children, enraging the country’s right-wing that has warned of dire consequences if the plan goes ahead.

France should draw up a “qualitative strategy” for teaching Arabic language in schools, Jean-Michel Blanquer said during an interview on French television. He insisted that Arabic, along with Chinese and Russian, is one of the “great languages of civilization” and should be learned “not only by people of Maghrebi origin or Arabic-speaking countries.”


******

I'm not French, so I don't get a say. in my opinion, French and English should be mandatory. There should be an option for a third language, if there's public demand for it, and that could be Arabic. If I had children now, I would emphasize English, then Spanish, then Chinese, assuming that it was feasible to do so.
The French minister of education is a cuck and is only doing this because he has some kind of guilt complex on top of being afraid of what Arabs could do if they don't get their way. You know there are as many Asians than Arab people in France, yet you don't see cuck politicians and intellectuals saying that Mandarin should be taught in French schools. First of all because Asian people do their best to integrate in European societies, and second because they don't have an entitlement problem and don't make all sort of delusional claims for their culture.

Many French people can't even speak French properly, they have the poorest level of English in Europe, and then you have that bald cuck telling the press "we need muh Arabic in school", fuck that, you know that Arab people aren't even asking for that? Making such suggestion is beyond enabling. And the guy knows what the reaction of the vast majority of French people (and your dear Belgian racist here) will be. He knows their defenses will go up, and rightfully so. The answer to this question, to this debate that should never have taken place, because there is no fucking debate, is: No. No there won't ever be any Arabic taught in French public schools, or any European schools for that matter.

No.

That's what Arab people and their cuck enablers need to hear, for their own good. We have our values, we have our culture, we have our own game and our own rules here in the West, either you abide by them, or you get the fuck out to the greener Islamic pastures you dream of. Fuck your civilization, OK, that's too harsh, I'm sure your civilization has some great aspect, but you keep them in your own regions of the world, or I'm going to come out and say that what China needs now is some hundred thousands of white Texans who will then demand that English is taught in Chinese public schools.

Enough with this nonsense. We still live in democratic societies here, and when we want to learn Arabic, we'll just take some private courses, thank you, or like some people I know did, take a minor in Arabic at university. One more thing, lol at thinking that Maghrebi people which makes up for the vast majority of Arab people in Europe even speak anything close to proper Arabic themselves. They all speak dialect.

The Macron government will likely be the last of his kind. Just like Italy was a little late to the party, in 3 years, France is going to have a right-wing government, which will be too extremist even for my liking, but this is what you get when you refuse to address the population's concerns about Muslim immigration while simultaneously pouring gasoline on the fire by saying out of the blue: 'you know what the French need? They need to learn Arabic in school!".
Afro_Vacancy wrote:
1 year ago
He told me that he feels 100% safe doing so in Morocco. However, he does not feel safe doing so in Paris, in neighborhoods where he might be surrounded by immigrants from Morocco or their children. Do you consider that difference to be surprising or expected?
https://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/detail ... id=9926843

Translated article: https://translate.google.be/translate?s ... t=&act=url

The Jews are the canaries in the coal mine in the increasingly islamized Europe, along with LGBT people.

The following article can be particularly enlightening for people who are still naive about how Arab people feel about the Jews:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... -community

This is the truth, my Muslim best friend never refrains from blaming the Jews or just let a "dirty Jews" come out, and it's with me so I can only imagine how it must be among themselves behind closed doors.
"Along the way some boys started making fun of him by shouting, “Go away, baldy! Get out of here!” Elisha turned around and stared at the boys. Then he cursed them in the name of the Lord. At once two bears ran out of the woods and ripped to pieces 42 of the boys." - 2 Kings 23-24

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