Western values and identity politics

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That Guy
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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by That Guy » 2 weeks ago

Johnson wrote:
2 weeks ago
I think his line of thinking is that us is an identity.

Our identity is that of those who lack the means of production: we are the we and I of the proletariat
Yeah, but "I of the proletariat" is still group interest. "Proletariat" is an identity.

I don't see that there is anything about Marxism which is about individuality at all. The entire point of Marxism is to eliminate any sort of unique personal or collective identity that is not associated with Marxism and reduce everyone to believers in an "idea". They are "Comrades" for no other reason than because they are Marxists. They saw Poles, Russians, East Germans, etc. as being all the same.

Christianity serves the same function. Nothing that distinguishes you and the group you belong to from the others matters; it only matters that you are Christian. It only matters that you worship the same thing.

Whoever is in charge of the ideas, is then in charge of everything, because the idea; the proposition, is all that matters.

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Johnson » 2 weeks ago

That Guy wrote:
2 weeks ago
Yeah, but "I of the proletariat" is still group interest. "Proletariat" is an identity.

I don't see that there is anything about Marxism which is about individuality at all. The entire point of Marxism is to eliminate any sort of unique personal or collective identity that is not associated with Marxism and reduce everyone to believers in an "idea". They are "Comrades" for no other reason than because they are Marxists. They saw Poles, Russians, East Germans, etc. as being all the same.

Christianity serves the same function. Nothing that distinguishes you and the group you belong to from the others matters; it only matters that you are Christian. It only matters that you worship the same thing.

Whoever is in charge of the ideas, is then in charge of everything, because the idea; the proposition, is all that matters.
It could be argued that Christianity itself is a form of identity. Certainly in the sense of identifying as a Christian and thus voting to a political party that is aligned with those beliefs. Its no surprise that those who identify as Christians in America are often voting for the republican party. In this sense being republican is identity politics and every vote they make for that party is a vote for that supports their own needs and wants.

The gist of what the professor was saying is that we cannot escape identity within politics as the way we vote is aligned to who we are.

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by That Guy » 2 weeks ago

Johnson wrote:
2 weeks ago
It could be argued that Christianity itself is a form of identity. Certainly in the sense of identifying as a chritian and thus voting to a political party that is aligned with those beliefs. Its no surprise that those who identify as Christians in America are often voting for the republican party. In this sense being republican is identity politics and every vote they make for that party is a vote for that supports their own needs and wants.

The gist of what the professor was saying is that we cannot escape identity within politics as the way we vote is aligned to who we are.
Yes, I agree that all politics are identity politics. I've actually literally said that a lot of this board.

What I don't agree with, is the idea that Marxism ever becomes about the individual at any point.

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Johnson » 2 weeks ago

Marxism wouldn't be about the individual but those who align themselves with the ideology would do so due to their identities (theoretically speaking*).

*practically speaking I don't hear many working class people in the UK support Marxist or even socialist ideology and they have a tendency to right wing thought.

Slugs for salt and all that.

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by Admin » 2 weeks ago

Johnson wrote:
2 weeks ago
I remember taking a class in sociology at university and we were told all forms of politics is identity politics.
Johnson wrote:
2 weeks ago
I think his line of thinking is that us is an identity.
It is correct, it all depends on how that identity is defined and what it's used to strive towards.

Marxists define identity based on economics (and the nation State in the case of the USSR), fascists define it based on the skin color, ethnicity and the nation State.

The West defines it based on the sanctity of the individual striving to make our society better by upholding values as freedom, equality and personal responsability.

As I've said in another topic, you put anything else up there than the supreme good, than God and you get death, chaos and fragmentation.

We've run the experiments. We know now.
"Along the way some boys started making fun of him by shouting, “Go away, baldy! Get out of here!” Elisha turned around and stared at the boys. Then he cursed them in the name of the Lord. At once two bears ran out of the woods and ripped to pieces 42 of the boys." - 2 Kings 23-24

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Re: Western values and identity politics

Post by blackg » 1 week ago

Admin wrote:
2 weeks ago
It is correct, it all depends on how that identity is defined and what it's used to strive towards.

Marxists define identity based on economics (and the nation State in the case of the USSR), fascists define it based on the skin color, ethnicity and the nation State.

The West defines it based on the sanctity of the individual striving to make our society better by upholding values as freedom, equality and personal responsability.

As I've said in another topic, you put anything else up there than the supreme good, than God and you get death, chaos and fragmentation.

We've run the experiments. We know now.
We are still experimenting!

So, God bless the West and mind altering substances.
Save me from destiny.

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