Scientific truth and religious truth

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Admin wrote:
1 year ago
Do you think that's what Sam Harris tells his wife every time he makes a mistake?

"Sorry honey, I don't have free will, me impulsively telling you to shut the fuck up was all predetermined!"
I am not sure why you made the above statements(was it meant to be an argument?). Perhaps you were attempting to claim that free will may not be real but it doesn't matter because people act as if it is real, even those who consider it to be not real. First of all, how people act has no bearing on what is real. Second, our beliefs don't always dictate our behavior. For example, a lot of times when we are angry or frustrated, we know we shouldn't be angry, but we still can't control our emotions. So in the end, your argument doesn't really accomplish except pointing out that people don't always act in accordance to their beliefs.
Admin wrote:
1 year ago
The fact that we exist, our consciousness, our sense of meaning and direction in life are the most real things, not the material universe that we could somehow be divorced from. We can't, until evidence to the contrary comes up, we're the most complex entities in the universe.

Meaning comes first, the material world comes second. The incoming evidence in neuroscience is currently confirming that, we perceive meaning before we perceive objects or matter.

We value meaning above everything else. Why is there this insistence in scientifically minded people to hypothesize for our non-existence?
No one on this thread has claimed that meaning doesn't matter. It's you who for some reason I don't understand keep on insisting that we devalue science by putting it lower in the hierarchy. I explained you that both are important in different ways. I even gave you the analogy of Amazon's website in an attempt to show how both are important. What is CURRENTLY important to you depends on what problem you are trying to solve. I will give you another example and perhaps it will drive the point home. While driving a car, we don't really care about how the car has been built, it's different components and the laws of physics that make it run. We don't worry about the details because our main concern is just driving the car and get to our destination. However, if there is a problem with the car, you do need to worry about the details in order to fix it. I will repeat my point, what is most important to you depends on what problem are you trying to solve. If you are trying to organize your life for the better, escaping nihilism, depression, etc, then focusing on the values that you have been advocating becomes the most important. However, when you are attempting to determine whether an ideology is good for human welfare, facts and logical argumentation become important.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Murkey Thumb » 1 year ago

I cant really agree with your scientific materialism point of view. From a moral view Atheism is a belief just like any other religious view point. From a scientific view point we already know that there are things in quantum mechanics that cannot be understood by any standard mathematical or scientific theory. The idea that every human behaviour can be explained and predicted by science is too narrow in its causality. Science cannot explain human endeavours like art, music, morality or even consciousness itself despite its many attempts. The notion of determinism in itself is fraught with problems, circular arguments and improbable verification.

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

I think that's where our disagreement lies. I view universe as entirely explainable by science. We may not have discovered all the laws governing the universe and hence can't explain things such as consciousness, but it doesn't mean there are no laws that can explain them.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

Murkey Thumb wrote:
1 year ago
I cant really agree with your scientific materialism point of view. From a moral view Atheism is a belief just like any other religious view point. From a scientific view point we already know that there are things in quantum mechanics that cannot be understood by any standard mathematical or scientific theory. The idea that every human behaviour can be explained and predicted by science is too narrow in its causality. Science cannot explain human endeavours like art, music, morality or even consciousness itself despite its many attempts. The notion of determinism in itself is fraught with problems, circular arguments and improbable verification.
Yeah there are always the obvious problems with the statements that have no leg to stand on:

Postmodernism: "there is no such thing as truth" which is stated as truth.

Still postmodernism: "no truth is more valid than another, there are no hierarchies" putting that statement as the sovereign principle... at the top of a hierarchy.

And finally:

"There are no symbolic hierarchies of values, but scientific knowledge should be valued the most and be put at the top of that hierarchy that doesn't exist since it cannot be proven by the scientific method, but I'll still put it at the top".

Brain-racking problems for sure, but that shows that we aren't done, and possibly never will be, hence this debate and the vivid discussions that took place between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. I cannot wait for them to release the content. Even though bootlegs are already available on YouTube, I want them in good quality :p.
"Along the way some boys started making fun of him by shouting, “Go away, baldy! Get out of here!” Elisha turned around and stared at the boys. Then he cursed them in the name of the Lord. At once two bears ran out of the woods and ripped to pieces 42 of the boys." - 2 Kings 23-24

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

Murkey Thumb wrote:
1 year ago
I cant really agree with your scientific materialism point of view. From a moral view Atheism is a belief just like any other religious view point. From a scientific view point we already know that there are things in quantum mechanics that cannot be understood by any standard mathematical or scientific theory. The idea that every human behaviour can be explained and predicted by science is too narrow in its causality. Science cannot explain human endeavours like art, music, morality or even consciousness itself despite its many attempts. The notion of determinism in itself is fraught with problems, circular arguments and improbable verification.
I like you, Murkey. You explain things so well that even low IQ individuals can understand what you're saying. Thanks.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Murkey Thumb » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
I think that's where our disagreement lies. I view universe as entirely explainable by science. We may not have discovered all the laws governing the universe and hence can't explain things such as consciousness, but it doesn't mean there are no laws that can explain them.
Ok this has been an interesting discussion so I will leave it here with a science question. Is the universe infinite or finite?

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

Murkey Thumb wrote:
1 year ago
Ok this has been an interesting discussion so I will leave it here with a science question. Is the universe is infinite or finite?
Both?

Do I win @Afro_Vacancy?
"Along the way some boys started making fun of him by shouting, “Go away, baldy! Get out of here!” Elisha turned around and stared at the boys. Then he cursed them in the name of the Lord. At once two bears ran out of the woods and ripped to pieces 42 of the boys." - 2 Kings 23-24

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Murkey Thumb wrote:
1 year ago
Ok this has been an interesting discussion so I will leave it here with a science question. Is the universe infinite or finite?
I honestly don't know :D
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Afro_Vacancy » 1 year ago

The observable universe is finite, and we don't have reliable constraints on the greater universe. Thus, the correct answer is: unknown.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Admin » 1 year ago

It's on! If anyone has 4 hours to "lose":



"Along the way some boys started making fun of him by shouting, “Go away, baldy! Get out of here!” Elisha turned around and stared at the boys. Then he cursed them in the name of the Lord. At once two bears ran out of the woods and ripped to pieces 42 of the boys." - 2 Kings 23-24

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

Admin wrote:
1 year ago
It's on! If anyone has 4 hours to "lose":



I listened to all 4 hours of the conversations. Unsurprisingly, I find myself agreeing with Sam Harris. Although, I do think Peterson's concerns about the consequence of loss of religion's are valid(even Sam agrees to that), however, I agree with Sam that the net negative of religions outweigh the positive. I also agree with Sam that structures obtained from religions aren't the only ones that can protect us from a nihilistic world view.
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by Rudiger » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
I am not sure why you made the above statements(was it meant to be an argument?). Perhaps you were attempting to claim that free will may not be real but it doesn't matter because people act as if it is real, even those who consider it to be not real. First of all, how people act has no bearing on what is real. Second, our beliefs don't always dictate our behavior. For example, a lot of times when we are angry or frustrated, we know we shouldn't be angry, but we still can't control our emotions. So in the end, your argument doesn't really accomplish except pointing out that people don't always act in accordance to their beliefs.



No one on this thread has claimed that meaning doesn't matter. It's you who for some reason I don't understand keep on insisting that we devalue science by putting it lower in the hierarchy. I explained you that both are important in different ways. I even gave you the analogy of Amazon's website in an attempt to show how both are important. What is CURRENTLY important to you depends on what problem you are trying to solve. I will give you another example and perhaps it will drive the point home. While driving a car, we don't really care about how the car has been built, it's different components and the laws of physics that make it run. We don't worry about the details because our main concern is just driving the car and get to our destination. However, if there is a problem with the car, you do need to worry about the details in order to fix it. I will repeat my point, what is most important to you depends on what problem are you trying to solve. If you are trying to organize your life for the better, escaping nihilism, depression, etc, then focusing on the values that you have been advocating becomes the most important. However, when you are attempting to determine whether an ideology is good for human welfare, facts and logical argumentation become important.
Reading this post alone made me feel vindicated I ducked out of this thread entirely. Your answers and logic to me are very obvious but you also put it forward well.
me me me me I'm the omniscient and compassionate Rudiger

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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
I listened to all 4 hours of the conversations.
I couldn't spend four hours listening to these two gas baggers droning on (and trying to prove how smart they are), but in the end... stating the bloody obvious!

Why do we put these bloviators on a pedestal?
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by pjhair » 1 year ago

blackg wrote:
1 year ago
Why do we put these bloviators on a pedestal?
Why not? :D
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Re: Scientific truth and religious truth

Post by blackg » 1 year ago

pjhair wrote:
1 year ago
Why not? :D
Good point. I guess at times we do need folks who can articulate our concerns.
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